[Alfie]

Mike,

Ahhhh, you smart cookie Yogi Yes I do have the blueprints for the next try, but I would need the assistance of a Donald Trump in the mix. I would also require a growing market of incoming tourism golfers to support such a venture.
I must admit to some phsycological infighting of my morals and beliefs on supporting the Trump dev't - but I think reality won the day, for me ?

I'm not so sure that a scaled down version will be acceptable for the Trump Org. But I am sure this issue will go to the Scottish Government for a final decision and the outcome will be a capitalistic YES  


Tom,

I'm "really" heartened by your insider info and that perhaps all will not be lost at Aberdeen. However, such a housing dev't brings in massive local tax revenue's and all sorts of economic values.

I can say, in complete honesty, that I would be delighted to see the golf courses in your domain of architectural wisdom - but we know that's not the case  

Still, I might be giving you a call when I secure my next 50 or so acres for a real golf course (not for profit) with a tin hut and loads of sheep shit under the soles. I can smell it as I speak !

BTW. I'm sick of meeting local punters in my home town, telling me that they're off to play Archerfield - while I'm off to lay bloody bricks and the suchlike. There's just no justice in this damned world !

Alfie.

[Alfie]

and the breaking news from Scotland is..................

The media appear to be coming out in favour of Donald....

The people / residents of Aberdeenshire feel let down by the decision to reject the plans, and are actually quite happy with the proposals.....

I fear a lynch mob might be out and about looking for seven branches for seven local cooncilors ? Are there any trees on Menie Estate ?

Alfie.

[Steve Lapper]

Alfie:

I know at least 3-4 developers who would be happy to build a golf course and a small lodge on that site and do without all the $1 billion worth of housing, and still manage to make ends meet, if the property could be obtained at a reasonable price and you didn't have to buy the mansion as part of it.

"Reasonable price" or "economic reality" is the ultimate underlying issue on the development side. The land (and mansion) isn't anywhere close to reasonably priced for a dramatically scaled-down or subtle-style (i.e Bandon) development. If anyone should try to apply a reasonable return-of-capital equation to this price, it would have to have some considerable housing or other capital appreciation or higher income-generation component in order to just break-even.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Donald, this project needs either an enormous charitable benefactor or a committed capitalist if it were to become a golf property.

I don't see too many here poo-pooing the Pinehurst's, Pebbles, or Kiawah's....Alfie's spot on about the hypocrisy of others.

[Mike Sweeney]

Interesting where his defenders reside.

Clayman,

They seem to reside in Scotland:

___________________

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/687e5cc6-9fb4-11dc-8031-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

The leader of the local council, Anne Robertson, called an emergency meeting in a bid to overturn the decision, citing the "overwhelming and unprecedented public response and dismay expressed at the decision".

With local business leaders hailing the scheme as a "once in a generation" chance to shift the economy of north-east Scotland away from its reliance on the oil and gas industry, many had been desperate to lure well-heeled golfers away from Gleneagles and St Andrews.

______________________

Perhaps your desire to rip into Donnie and all of us who live within 100 miles of Trump Tower should take a backseat and allow Alfie and all the Scots in the north-east to have a better life? Not every course needs to have the same business model as Ballyneal, as per Tom Paul's Big World theory.

Just for the record, I have never played a Trump course.

[Rich Goodale]

"The land (and mansion) isn't anywhere close to reasonably priced for a dramatically scaled-down or subtle-style (i.e Bandon) development."

Steve

What exactly was the price that Trump paid for the land (and mansion)?  I don't ever remember seeing it in print.  And, if he actually put down cash at a price which would only be economical if his development plans were approved, this hardly seems very businesslike.  Is the Donald that stupid or has he suddenly become a serious risk taker?

[Adam Clayman]

Ain't life grand?
The socialist Scots need a capitalistic injection while us American capitalist pigs get a national health plan shoved up our arses.

The Big Wolrd theory is as flawed as this world.

How is the acceptance of mediocrity in golf course architecture reflective of society?

Since you boys are so close with the donald, can you explain how he could actually lose equity in the casino business?

I can see the billboards now. " $2m Estates starting at 1/4 acre.

[Chris Kane]

Its very easy to think of golf as the be all and end all when you're sitting thousands of miles away.  Those in the north-east of Scotland don't have that luxury.

[Mike Sweeney]

Its very easy to think of golf as the be all and end all when you're sitting thousands of miles away.  Those in the north-east of Scotland don't have that luxury.

Chris,

I first visited Ireland in 1984. I was slightly embarressed by my Irish heritage when we took the boat from Liverpool to Dublin. It seemed like we were the only sober people on the midnight boat, and I was three months out of college, so my ability to drink beer was at its peak.

Fifeteen years later, the Celtic Tiger hits Ireland, Enniscrone gets a new clubhouse, Donald Steel does a renovation of the Eddie Hackett course, and Enniscrone gets a new International Member, namely me who is now proud of where Ireland sits in the world. My sister just finished building a house near Westport.

Obviously hanging around here puts in a somewhat embarrassing position as a GCA geek in the world, but there is no grey area with me on this topic. One of my closest friends in the world was my Uncle Willie who worked for the Ford Foundation www.fordfound.org and with that perspective jobs take a priority over a world that suffers from "mediocrity in golf course architecture".

Clayman,

Not sure if you were serious with that post or just trying to hang on to an argument, but I am once again real comfortable if you need to report me to Tommy and Ran for accepting mediocrity on GCA. By the way, if it still happens, Trump Scotland may be very good with local Martin Hawtree in the architecture seat.

[Bill Brightly]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but did Trump announce who the architect would be on the course?

Does Fazio built all of his courses?

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, Hawtree was selected when The donald realized his effort would go over smoother with the locals, plus the chance of being considered for the ROTA.

Sweeney, You must have me confused with some others who waste Ran's time with the petty behind the scene gossips.

[Mark_F]

...and allow Alfie and all the Scots in the north-east to have a better life?

Why would they have a better life? Hospitality/golf maintenance workers in the UK are notoriously poorly paid, and will be,regardless of whether Trump charges sixty quid or twenty for a steak, or fifty quid or five hundred for a round.

This development is about making squillions for the developers - not for the locals.

Not every course needs to have the same business model as Ballyneal.

Of course it doesn't. But golf would be better off if it had more of the Ballyneal model, and less of the grandiose and hyper expensive.

[Jason McNamara]

Alfie, I appreciate the insight.  I think I agree with you that The Donald won't get everything he wants, but he'll get a lot of it.  And as long as it's not too over the top, it will probably work out well for the local area.

Tom, thanks for the info on the others.

Rich, just as a guideline, the hold-out fisherman apparently got an initial offer of L350,000 for his 23 acres (since bumped to 375K).

Aggregate numbers available at http://tinyurl.com/yvuuaf
(pdf file)

Bill, the architect would be Martin Hawtree.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,

I don't know much about Scotland, but again I saw what happened in Ireland. Even if these numbers are off by a factor of 50%, it would seem that jobs are needed in Scotland.

_______________________
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=789082006

THE true figure for unemployment in Scotland is 250,000 - almost three times the official number - according to a groundbreaking report.

Research conducted by one of Britain's leading authorities on the welfare state claims there are 160,000 "hidden unemployed" in Scotland, many of them forced on to sickness benefits through lack of work.

____________________________

Not every course needs to have the same business model as Ballyneal.

Of course it doesn't. But golf would be better off if it had more of the Ballyneal model, and less of the grandiose and hyper expensive.

Mark,

Ballyneal is something like $50,000 for initiation plus a decent annual fee for a remote course. No it is not in the Sebonack category of expensive, but I don't think Ballyneal would fit in the affordable category for 95+% of golfers in the US, and certainly my wife would not view it as affordable. Assuming 18 holes of Trump Scotland ends up being a resort, a one time splurge similar to Bandon would seem reasonable for many golfers.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

I don't know much about Scotland, but again I saw what happened in Ireland. Even if these numbers are off by a factor of 50%, it would seem that jobs are needed in Scotland.

_______________________
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=789082006

THE true figure for unemployment in Scotland is 250,000 - almost three times the official number - according to a groundbreaking report.

Research conducted by one of Britain's leading authorities on the welfare state claims there are 160,000 "hidden unemployed" in Scotland, many of them forced on to sickness benefits through lack of work.

____________________________

Not every course needs to have the same business model as Ballyneal.

Of course it doesn't. But golf would be better off if it had more of the Ballyneal model, and less of the grandiose and hyper expensive.

Mark,

Ballyneal is something like $50,000 for initiation plus a decent annual fee for a remote course. No it is not in the Sebonack category of expensive, but I don't think Ballyneal would fit in the affordable category for 95+% of golfers in the US, and certainly my wife would not view it as affordable. Assuming 18 holes of Trump Scotland ends up being a resort, a one time splurge similar to Bandon would seem reasonable for many golfers.

Mike,

To suggest that the growth in the Irish economy was based on golf tourism is, well, far fetched.  I'm no economist but realise that there are a whole host of reasons why this economy turned around.  The building of a ridiculous carbuncle of a hotel for super wealthy Americans to visit the North East of Scotland isn't going to create a boom up there.  

As to the "groundreaking study" in that Scotsman article.  Let's just say that there's some debate as to the validity of those statistics.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,

I agree with you that golf was an insignificant catalyst of  the Celtic Tiger. I never stated otherwise which is the problem with these types of debates on the internet - things get misinterpreted.

When I jumped on this thread, it was probably to play more of a Shivas/Barney devils advocate type of role and show the other side of the coin from the standard "Trump Sucks" thread on GCA.

Along the way, Alfie, some other locals and now many UK publications have jumped in and supported Trump Scotland or at least presented the fallout of the development falling through. I mentioned my uncle at The Ford Foundation, and this is what they did mainly in the Third World - economic stimulation. Clearly Scotland is different, and the Ford Foundation is not going to come into this type of situation, but in the silliness of a golf architecture website, I do consider this a serious debate.

You stated, "The building of a ridiculous carbuncle of a hotel for super wealthy Americans to visit the North East of Scotland isn't going to create a boom up there."

Bandon Dunes Resort is now one of the 5 largest employers in Coos County Oregon. I doubt Mike K is going to step in here, as his Bandon model was based on Scotland golf. What would be your solution for North East Scotland or more specifically what would be your solution for the Trump Scotland site?

[Sean_A]

What would be your solution for North East Scotland or more specifically what would be your solution for the Trump Scotland site?

Mike

What do you mean by these questions?  

We have to keep in mind that these dunes areas are rather limited in the UK.  I believe the Council is right and proper to seriously question the tradeoff between a unique environment and what the destruction (I know Trump says it won't be destroyed, but lets get real) of that environment brings in terms of long term growth for the local economy.  Also, we haven't had the chance to compare what the outcome of other models may be in using parts of that land.  

Personally, I question the ethic that if we aren't growing the economy than the country is slowly dying.  Changing maybe, but the country has been in change to a great degree for all of the last 100 years.  I don't see that as dying, though many regret the loss of prestige once connected with an empire which led the world in many aspects of growth and innovation.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

What would be your solution for North East Scotland or more specifically what would be your solution for the Trump Scotland site?

Mike

What do you mean by these questions?  

In a Discussion Group, I am attempting to solicit solutions rather than identifying the problems which seem to be overly focused on the fact that it is Trump.

I probably would suck if I was ever elected to higher office because I am basically a softie and would listen to the people. Often you have to look out for the long-term greater good, but in this situation, I would not due to:

____________________________________
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1880122007


Yesterday Aberdeen City and Shire Economic Forum said it was co-ordinating a campaign in support of Mr Trump.

Patrick Machray, its chairman, said: "Our vision is of a region that aspires to be a world-class destination and is open for business. It is vital that we communicate this message to Donald Trump and the rest of the world in light of yesterday's decision."

Stewart Spence, owner of Aberdeen's top hotel, said the councillors who rejected the plans were traitors: "The definition of traitor is when you betray your country or your cause. The cause was to increase tourism in the North-east and in Scotland.

"We are making decisions for future generations and we could be leaving our grandchildren a development like the Trump resort. Instead, we will be leaving them sand dunes."

Dr Lesley Sawers, the chief executive of the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce, said: "This could ultimately impact on Scotland's ability to meet its 50 per cent tourism growth target."

THE PROJECT'S PROS AND CONS
PROS

• The development could support 6,230 jobs during construction in Aberdeenshire, and 740 in the rest of Scotland.

• Ongoing operation could support 1,250 and 1,440 long-term jobs in region and Scotland respectively.

• It could create £205-£262 million of new economic output over course of build.

• It could generate £47 million a year in Aberdeenshire.

• It would provide a lasting impact for the region, bringing in a £300 million slice of tourism income.

CONS

• Area marked for the golf course is environmentally sensitive coastline.

• It hosts seven bird species on conservation Red List.

• About 40 per cent of site is on the Foveran Links Site of Special Scientific Interest.

• Environmentalists say the project would destroy one of UK's top five sand dunes.

• It is also claimed that it would undermine the Scottish environmental assessment regulations laid out to protect nationally important sites - and would be contrary to European and Scottish legislation.

[Mark Pearce]

Mike,

There are a lot of coulds in that list of pros.  Wht we do know is that most of the jobs created will be low paid.  Golf contributes enormously to the economy of St Andrews because money doesn't just go to the Links Trust, local hotels, bars and restaurants also benefit and the money all goes into the local economy.  Let's be honest, the money going into Trump Aberdeen will mostly end up in The Donald's pocket.  Now if people would be staying in Aberdeen, rather than in Trump's carbuncle and eating and drinking in town as well, that would be different.  Frankly, the building of a couple of serious courses, without the seven story hotel might be better for the local economy.

The analagy with Bandon is fatally flawed.  Aberdeen is not some sleepy village in the North East of Scotland.  It's a (relatively) major economic centre with a strong oil industry base.  It's also far closer to other major cities and readily accessible by road, rail and air.

I think you need to ask what problem it is that you are attempting to elicit solutions to.

[Alfie]

Mike,

You're quite right to raise a range of diversified questions on this issue. Nothing's simple.

Mike said ; "In a Discussion Group, I am attempting to solicit solutions rather than identifying the problems which seem to be overly focused on the fact that it is Trump. "

100% SPOT ON ! And that's why, contrary to some of my own personal opinions etc, I have come out in total support of the Menie project.

I wonder what the "professional" consensus would have been if one Jack Nicklaus had been at the helm of this project ?

This thread, and other discussion boards in Scotland, are seeing diverse views displayed involving the environment, ecology, economics, preservation, employment, etc, etc...
The good thing is - that we in Scotland have "this" choice to make. ie, take it or leave it ?

I'm neither qualified nor expert in anything ! Although I did learn a great deal about Scotland's tourisn industry in the short spell when I was an active player. I've also witnessed some ludicrous decision making on the part of environment and conservation issue's.

On the basis that "someone" from outside of Scotland's shores, proposes "The Menie Development" I would say this ;

The economics in relation to Scotland's interest are obvious and should require no explanation IMO.

The business sector in the north east are enthusiastically behind the development.

Joe public also "appears" to favour the development.

In opposition we have a few small minded groups (many who are not even Scottish !) who will disperse to their caves should they get their way ! No doubt, leaving a littered landscape behind them !

Then there's the evironmentalists and conservationists who quite simply HAVE to justify their ever increasing status of power !
It's this latter aspect which will innevitably decide all.

IMO, the few birds and other wildlife that exist will probably relocate. The moving sand dunes (wasteland) will be stabilised by the building of the new courses ? Once the courses are built, new wildlife will reinstate itself.
An influx of people, both resident and visitor, will generate taxation and visitor spend revenue's which will go towards propping up the power hungry and expensive quangoe's we have to pay for. Life will go on and perhaps a few will prosper and revert to philanphropy ?

Finally, those who prophesy the end of the world will focus their intentions on a new hickory golf venture in the south of Scotland where they'll find someone who is not in the  politically correct mould and is prepared to kick arses if required ?

Alfie.

[Sean_A]

What would be your solution for North East Scotland or more specifically what would be your solution for the Trump Scotland site?

Mike

What do you mean by these questions?  

In a Discussion Group, I am attempting to solicit solutions rather than identifying the problems which seem to be overly focused on the fact that it is Trump.

I probably would suck if I was ever elected to higher office because I am basically a softie and would listen to the people. Often you have to look out for the long-term greater good, but in this situation, I would not due to:

____________________________________
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1880122007


Yesterday Aberdeen City and Shire Economic Forum said it was co-ordinating a campaign in support of Mr Trump.

Patrick Machray, its chairman, said: "Our vision is of a region that aspires to be a world-class destination and is open for business. It is vital that we communicate this message to Donald Trump and the rest of the world in light of yesterday's decision."

Stewart Spence, owner of Aberdeen's top hotel, said the councillors who rejected the plans were traitors: "The definition of traitor is when you betray your country or your cause. The cause was to increase tourism in the North-east and in Scotland.

"We are making decisions for future generations and we could be leaving our grandchildren a development like the Trump resort. Instead, we will be leaving them sand dunes."

Dr Lesley Sawers, the chief executive of the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce, said: "This could ultimately impact on Scotland's ability to meet its 50 per cent tourism growth target."

THE PROJECT'S PROS AND CONS
PROS

• The development could support 6,230 jobs during construction in Aberdeenshire, and 740 in the rest of Scotland.

• Ongoing operation could support 1,250 and 1,440 long-term jobs in region and Scotland respectively.

• It could create £205-£262 million of new economic output over course of build.

• It could generate £47 million a year in Aberdeenshire.

• It would provide a lasting impact for the region, bringing in a £300 million slice of tourism income.

CONS

• Area marked for the golf course is environmentally sensitive coastline.

• It hosts seven bird species on conservation Red List.

• About 40 per cent of site is on the Foveran Links Site of Special Scientific Interest.

• Environmentalists say the project would destroy one of UK's top five sand dunes.

• It is also claimed that it would undermine the Scottish environmental assessment regulations laid out to protect nationally important sites - and would be contrary to European and Scottish legislation.

Mike

I don't give it a toss if it was Trump or anybody else.  I actually know very little about the man or his courses.  What I object to is the size of the project.

What I notice glaringly, on the pro side is the use of words like "could".  Personally, I am very skeptical of business plans which use these terms.  They are more or less pitching their idea and asking to destroy a unique environment.  I am not sure what that is worth, but I would guess more than "could".  I think the bottom line is if you trust Trump or not.  We all know what he is proposing will be a hideous scar on the land.  Do you believe he will deliver what he says in exchange for this gold city?

I look at a place like St Andrews and wonder if the expansion into Disney World proportions was worth it.  If I was living there - not a chance.  In fact, it puts me off visiting St Andrews because I know what it once was.  While not the same thing at all, I would argue that St Andrews was just as much a unique environment as these dunes north of Aberdeen.  That environment was sold for what?  

It will be interesting to see what comes of the extra-ordinary meeting.  Usually, Councils have clauses in their standing orders which prohibit re-discussing matters in which a decision has already been made for 6 months.  If the Council decides to suspend standing orders I suspect there will be a serious falling out with at least a few resignations.  Why?  Because more or less, this Committee was given the power to make decisions on the Council's behalf.  If the Council then turns around and says we have no confidence in this Committee it doesn't bode well for these individual Committee Members.  Its a messy business which the Council should let lie, and work behind the scenes with Trump to make the proposal more reasonable, but I bet the Committee's decision is overturned.  Why?  Because most Council Members have no spine and are just as worried about protecting their backsides as the idiots in London.  

Ciao

[Alfie]

Mark,

I appreciate where you're coming from.

In regard to unemployment. What we have, like elsewhere in the UK, are considerable numbers of lazy bastards who have no intention of finding work because our "once upon a time - great institution" is propping them up !
Fortunately, there also exists many who are desperate to get back into work for all the right reasons !

On making Trump richer (although I hear he's as skint as myself ?) I can only say that I've played Turnberry Ailsa a couple of times without spending a penny in the hotel. The Old Course at St Andrews was the same where my brother and myself got out of town and found much cheaper fish suppers to be had ?

Hope you're well.

Alfie.

[Philip Gawith]

Sean, your comment implicitly assumes that the committee has made a good call, and the Council who may have them overruled, is somehow corruptible. But democracy means representing your constituents and there is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that the people round there want this project, for better or for worse. By that standard, surely the council is doing the right thing?

Of course, you hope that democracy is more than crude majoritarianism, and that minority rights are respected. But in this case there is more than a whiff that a minority agenda is being imposed.

Your larger point is that you are deeply sceptical about development. That is your right, but it is also the sovereign right of the people living somewhere to decide whether they want to choose the low development/low opportunities route (for that is surely the choice?) or whether to accept that this is a price to pay for helping improve the livelihood and opportunities of people in the area. It would seem on this point that the committee and the "people" are not speaking with one voice (and lets also recall that this particular committee man has quite an extreme set of views - has not been on an aeroplane for 15 years, does not own a mobile phone. Maybe this is admirable - but who is he speaking for?

Goodness knows, I have no brief for Donald Trump, but objections to his style and image are surely not the point here? Either the area wants development or not - if they want it, it is easy enough to regulate the detail to ensure it is not too OTT.

[Marty Bonnar]

I keep meaning to post the photos I took of the dune erosion at St Andrews. NOT a pretty sight. Take a walk over towards the estuary next time you're in town. Maybe we could have a BUDA field trip.

We are actively involved with a ton of partners looking at what can be done (AGAIN) to stabilise the system. There was a HUGE dune 're-charging' operation done a few years ago which worked well, but is now again failing.

Trust me, a new golf course being built on the Menie Estate will be of little impact on the dune system when compared to the power of nature, the rising sea levels and the slight (for you, Big Red! ) temperature rise we appear to be living through.

FBD.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ever wonder where the many projected visitors to a future Trump complex would come from? I mean, Trump is not creating new golfers, he is just hoping to lure existing golfers away from their current resort and into his place. So for every job created in Aberdeen there will be another one lost elsewhere. Certainly I'd expect other regions in Scotland to bear a part of the brunt - something to consider for the Scottish government.

Ulrich

[Steve Lapper]

Ever wonder where the many projected visitors to a future Trump complex would come from? I mean, Trump is not creating new golfers, he is just hoping to lure existing golfers away from their current resort and into his place. So for every job created in Aberdeen there will be another one lost elsewhere. Certainly I'd expect other regions in Scotland to bear a part of the brunt - something to consider for the Scottish government.

Ulrich

 What facts can you possibly cite to back up such a ludicrous statement? Your theory is pure falsehood and smacks of reactionary and baseless assumption.

 Solid evidence from a very trusted travel-oriented source reveals absolute growth in the market for upscale golf travel. If you don't believe me, just call the Perry people or other golf travel companies specializing in higher-end travel to Scotland or Ireland.

 By your logic (or lack of), why should any new lodge or resort open at the high end to compete with others in a similar venue? Let's keep the issues clear and free of such silliness.

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