[TEPaul]

"Anyway, I really don't think you measure the greatest courses by checking off the things they've done "right".  It's the things that make them different than other courses which put them on top."

Hmmm, interesting.

Believe me, I haven't thought much at all about what I'm about to ask, so I'll just throw it out there anyway.

Do you think that some of the things inherent in some of the old architecture such as the extreme proximity to roads and such is a "difference" from modern architecture (which is not permitted to do it) that puts some of the old courses on top because of that?

I guess after enough time goes by such things fall into the category of "unique".  

[TEPaul]

Paul Cowley, if you're reading this thread I know damn well what's going through your mind. You're thinking about building an old fashioned paved road at Newark as a hazard that in fact really goes nowhere right next to a green or two aren't you?

[TEPaul]

Do you guys realize that the wonderful 17th green at Maidstone has a green surface that is mere ten steps in the back and six steps on the right from the paved surface of a public road?

The chances of taking out the windshield of a $100,000 plus automobile on this hole has got to be far better than any other golf hole in the entire world.

In my opinion this is a strategic risk/reward hazard that is totally unique and very very cool psychologically.



PS:

I do realize there are other old courses extant where the chances of shattering an automobile windshield is pretty good. Just ask Wayne Morrison---he knows from personal experience. Also ask him how intuitive I am about shots that are in midair. I said: "Oh My God, that shot of yours has a chance of shattering a windshield." And just as I was saying that Wayne said: "No way that could happen." Just as he finished saying that---CRASH!!

[Joe Hancock]

The chances of taking out the windshield of a $100,000 plus automobile on this hole has got to be far better than any other golf hole in the entire world.

Never before have I been so inspired to pry for access.....

Joe

[TEPaul]

You got it Joe. I will see to it that you and I play Maidstone. The state of my golf game today sort of dictates that I actually aim at the windshield of some $100,000 plus automobile on the approach shot to the 17th green at Maidstone. Only that way am I pretty much ensured of not hitting it. Actually, I've gotten so short even if I hit it I doubt it would do any damage.

[jim_lewis]

I agree that Merion is a great course. My only point was that it, like many other classic courses, has features that if they were (or could be) built today, would likely keep them from winning a "best new" award.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim,
Your forgetting one very important point: Merion has no chance of beating out the Jim Engh-designed Creek Course @ Reynold's Plantation. This has been guaranteed I've been told.....

Ardmore Avenue busy? Come to LA and see busy.... Would LACC's South Course be a victim of one of the most busiest, if not most expensive roads (real estate wise) in Golf?

[JohnV]

Another shot over a road is the tee shot on #1 at Stanford which has to carry Junipero Serra Blvd.  The road is crossed again, but not with a shot.

As I recall Royal Worthington and Newmarket crosses a road on the last hole.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

There are actually tons of courses in the UK where you hit over a road at some point.  St. George's Hill, Sunningdale, and Wentworth West all have roads that you hit a tee shot over I believe ... though not nearly as busy a road as the one at Stanford.

Possibly the most dangerous for golf ball accidents is Mid Ocean, where four holes cross public roads.  It's especially dangerous because a lot of the traffic on those roads is open scooters instead of cars; but everyone there is so used to it that it has rarely been a problem.  That was actually the impetus for me to go there to do consulting the first visit.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside - the comments about the number of older courses where roads are in play suggested to me that the game must have been a less "precious" thing back in earlier times (simpler, less litigious times, as Tom P says.)  

I mean, I assume courses today aren't being built that way primarily for legal reasons, but also because few golfers (either at a new private club or high-end public course) would accept having their flow, their game, or their golfing experience "interrupted" that way, or their vistas/views "marred" that way.

I know the roads mentioned all must've been much less busy back then than today, but they were still there, as was at least some kind of traffic...but no one seems to have given them much thought at all.  Maybe it's this kind of modern-day "preciousness" that would keep Merion off the "best new" list, while preferencing instead the large-scaled courses and those with open vistas.

But on second thought, maybe "precious" is a negatively loaded word. Maybe I could just as easily have said this modern-day "love of nature and of the natural" that stems from having less and less of it in our daily lives.

Just an aside; just thinking out loud.

Peter    

[TEPaul]

" Maybe I could just as easily have said this modern-day "love of nature and of the natural" that stems from having less and less of it in our daily lives."

Interesting point, Peter.

There's a classic on this general subject by Marshall McCluhan, I think, called "The Greening of America". I'll have to get it out and read it again.

The USA has always had a pretty interesting dynamic with progress and nature. A constant two-way-stretch, as it were.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

There was not very much car traffic on Ardmore Avenue when Merion was built in 1911.  By the 1920's they could see the error of their ways, but the course was already there and already famous, so they eliminated the shots over the road but kept the course in place, thankfully.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

The latest rumor out of Merion is they're now looking to pick up about 357 more yards of total card distance.

The plan is to make #1 a dogleg left again, put the tee on #2 on the clubhouse side of Ardmore Ave, restore the Alps green on #10 in the middle of the present #1 fairway, reconstitute the 11th tee next to the restored Alps green on the clubhouse side of Ardmore Ave and play #12 to the present 13th green. The 13th will be about 197 yards to the old island 13th green that still exists behind the clubhouse next to the creek.

The only remaining obstacle is the caddies have hung out on the old 13th green for decades while waiting for loops and they say they're fixing to strike if this actually happens.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Has Merion ever considered building a tunnel under or a bridge over Ardmore Avenue?

[wsmorrison]

I don't see why they would.  It isn't an annoying problem at all.  

The only time it gets cumbersome is when the 120 or so participants in the Bobby Jones tournament cross en masse to the 11th hole in tuxedos for the annual President's toast to the Grand Slam champion.  That does create a bit of gridlock...but the motorists don't seem to mind.

The timing of the crossings is pretty interesting.  When you cross from one green to two tee, you either realize it for the first time very quickly or are reminded that you're in for a very difficult tee shot to a long uphill par 5.  That road is on your mind walking off the green and until you hit the tee shot.  As for crossing the road between the 12th green and the 13th tee, you know one of the most difficult finishing stretches in all of golf awaits and you put a little more pressure on yourself to play to the short par 3 13th.  The size of the green and the surrounding trouble make three a good score.  A little pause to reflect on what's upcoming is a good thing and adds to the mental test of playing the golf course.

[TEPaul]

"Has Merion ever considered building a tunnel under or a bridge over Ardmore Avenue?"

Steverino:

You have to understand that Merion is an immensely powerful golf club.

If they felt traffic with golfers crossing Ardmore Ave. was getting to be too much of a problem their solution would never be to build a tunnel under or a bridge over Ardmore Ave. Their solution would be to have Ardmore Ave permanently closed to automobiles!  

Furthermore, if these idiots in Philadelphia and the FAA get their way and change the flight patterns in and out of Philadelphia International airport to route them over the western suburbs Merion just may have Philadelphia International airport permanently closed too.

Wayne:

Nice article on Richie Asburn in the Inquirer yesterday.

[John Kavanaugh]

It would be a tough sell given that Merion has a full membership and would not be interested in buying a full page ad.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I missed the article.  Is it possible for you to hold onto it and let me have it when next we meet?

[Mike_Cirba]

"You call that a practice facility?!?"

"Why didn't they just put the first tee inside the clubhouse??  How is someone supposed to concentrate and execute their pre-shot routine with all of those non-playing onlookers??"

"Why do they let that stuff grow inside the bunkers?"



And...speaking of road crossings, this is one I encountered recently.   Look closely...that's NOT  a cart.  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

That's the hole used for the long drive competition during the HoF induction weekend tournament.  A good drive is close to that road, but it is on an upslope.  Reggie wished he hit one as long as I did on that hole  

By the way, great greensite at the end of that hole.  There are many great greensites on that gem of a course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

That's the hole used for the long drive competition during the HoF induction weekend tournament.  A good drive is close to that road, but it is on an upslope.  Reggie wished he hit one as long as I did on that hole  

By the way, great greensite at the end of that hole.  There are many great greensites on that gem of a course.

Wayne,

Isn't it amazing how much photography flattens landscapes?   That approach is severely uphill!  

Should we start calling you, "Mr. September"?

[wsmorrison]

How about Mr. Spray?  Tom Paul and Jamie Slonis have helped quite a bit but I think the final solution to my driving woes is coming from Athens, GA as we speak.

[Mike_Cirba]

How about Mr. Spray?  Tom Paul and Jamie Slonis have helped quite a bit but I think the final solution to my driving woes is coming from Athens, GA as we speak.

The next REM album??  

[wsmorrison]

Are they from Athens, GA?  No, I'm talking about a new driver.  Whenever we make it over to Pocono Manor, be prepared to be in awe  

[Mike_Cirba]

Are they from Athens, GA?  No, I'm talking about a new driver.  Whenever we make it over to Pocono Manor, be prepared to be in awe  

If, as I suspect, the clubhead is over twice the size of mine, I'll be disappointed in your lack of purist GCA dogmatism.  

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