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SPDB

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2007, 03:27:03 PM »
Bear in mind that SLCC is primarily a CB Mac design, whereas Blue Mound and Yeamans were exclusively Raynor. That fact alone is often determinative of how many "template" holes the course will feature.

Michael Moore

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2007, 03:31:10 PM »
Wayne -

The inclusion of every hole plus the brevity of download plus the editorial restraint plus the exciting subject matter make this a very compelling review.

Well done. I hope that this kind of fast tour catches on. . . .golfclubatlas.com speed dating?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 03:31:22 PM by Michael Moore »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

RJ_Daley

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2007, 03:37:18 PM »
Peter, thanks for the input.  I suppose we could have hashed this out over dinner that evening and into another bottle of vino, but I doubt Liz and Jo Ann would have found it as sintilating dinner conversation as we do.   ::) ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2007, 06:46:27 PM »
At the risk of irritating Mr. Moore, here are some add'l pix of SLCC, with a few geared toward specific features JK had asked about...

From the 1st tee...


Back left of the 1st green, looking up the fairway...


2nd green, with this day's pin in the right side of the swale...



From behind 3rd green, with glimpses of the Eden bunkers and some vague sense of the elevation change...


From the "Road" behind #4


Hard to get the 3-D feel, but this was taken from (roughly) the current 6th tee/previous reno. site of the 5th green, looking back over the current (and original) 5th green-site...


The blind tee shot on #6...


..and then the green on "Knoll"


More to follow...

Peter_Herreid

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2007, 06:53:33 PM »
The 8th tee pad is tucked into a treed area behind the 7th green...


and the 8th green is barely visible below the orange leaves.


The 12th tee "Crater" (??Is that right?)


...and then from behind the 12th green


From front right of the 15th green, with evident raised back plateau...


...and then from the far right side of the same green


#16 and #18 to follow...

Peter_Herreid

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2007, 06:58:41 PM »
To be honest, I don't remember if I took this picture of #16 from the 16th tee, or the 17th tee.  In any event, it seems I'm more to the right than Wayne was...


18th tee...


The deep bunker behind the "quasi-Alps" wall (I don't have a good picture of the view from the fairway :'(


A slightly different angle...

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2007, 07:27:10 PM »
Thank you to both Peter and Wayne.  The combination of the 2 sets of photos really brings to life (as well as photos can) the St. Louis C.C. I have always loved.

Other than moving the 5th green back down the hill and then moving the 6th tee backwards to the area of the old 5th green, the routing and greens and tees have not really changed much in the last 25 years.  The new #5 green was done sometime after 1990 and before 1995.

I have not seen the course now for about 10 years, and I thought I heard there may now be a new tee box for 17.  But still, other than 5 green, this is the same routing as I have always known.

The bunkers are flat.  Perhaps this is why I prefer flat bunkers.  It was actually common at most St. Louis courses built in the first half of the 20th century.  I like the flat bunkers, with the light brown sand.  I have never liked gleaming white sand in bunkers on Mid-West golf courses.  Bunker sand should try to replicate the sand found near that region.

It was funny to hear the discussion about the OB on #1.  In a US Open Sectional qualifier in 1990, there was a play-off for the last spot.  One of the contestents pushed his drive hard right, but his ball hit solid wood and bounced back into the fairway.  Another contestant did actually go OB right.  So although the fairway is wide, having the OB so close to fairway seems to bring it more into play, even for good players who should know better.

As for #6, in that same qualifier the back tee box did not yet exist.  I caddied for that day’s medalist, and the three players in our group all just hit drivers both times knowing they would likely be in the bunkers in front of the green.  The since added back tee box, should bring the lay-up back into play for even the big hitters.

I once made the mistake of asking Sam Snead if he remembered St. Louis CC. (this was during one of Hale Irwin's fund raising events at nearby Old Warson C.C. in the mid-80s).  He replied that he did not.  I then added that it was the sight of the 1947 US Open.  He just slowly turned his head to face me and replied "I don't wanna remember that."  Having been dumb enough to raise this painful memory, I realized it was best that I then just leave.  I deserved the curt response.  But more so, it shows how much passion he had for that missing US Open win.

Next summer, the St. Louis Metro Golf Association is having their stroke play (54 holes) championship at St. Louis CC in early August.  It may be a good opportunity to see how the course handles tournament play in the 21st century.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 07:37:10 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Mike Sweeney

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2007, 07:32:23 PM »


Just for purposes of background info, I would cluster SLCC, Blue Mound and Mountain Lake very tightly together in terms of quality level, worthiness for study and fun to play...

Peter,

An interesting grouping. I often say that Mountain Lake is the #1 Raynor in the world ............. during the months of December to March. I am not sure from the pictures that SLCC is plane worthy in June? Victoria National would seem to be more unique? Yes, I do live in the heart of MacRaynor country, and I did notice that you left Piping Rock off your list?

John Kavanaugh

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2007, 07:42:45 PM »
StLCC is more plane worthy then Victoria National in June.  I had no idea that Mountain Lake could even be discussed at the same table as StLCC...I didn't think a Florida course outside of Seminole could be that good.  

StLCC is the only course in the midwest that I would recommend a New Yorker get on a plane and see tomorrow if possible.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2007, 07:46:56 PM »
Well, Mike, you should make it early June!  I can only imagine how tough it must be to have St. Louis area courses in good shape considering how brutal the summer conditions often are there...

It might be plane-worthy in mid-Spring or later in the fall!

I clustered those 3 together mostly because they do not regularly appear on GM or GD Top 100 lists (and therefore some might not know much about them), which Piping Rock often does.  I think Piping Rock differs, not necessarily better or worse, in its sense of expansiveness, when compared to those 3.  Sure SLCC had its old polo field too, but the rest of the property seems pretty well tucked in by the trees...

If you can't be blasted out of the northeast to come to Bandon, then I couldn't in good faith recommend that you travel to STL first!!!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 07:52:16 PM by Peter_Herreid »

Kyle Harris

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2007, 07:54:05 PM »
St. Louis and Philadelphia are the suicide belts for superintendents.

Mountain Lake the best Raynor in the world? It's my only Raynor, but I'd imagine that Carmargo or Yeaman's Hall are a bit more well-regarded. That being said, I do have a very soft spot for Mountain Lake and always will.

Double Plateau:


Biarritz:


Cape:


Short:


Redan (from back left):

Jeff_Stettner

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2007, 08:32:52 PM »
Important to note that number 5 green site is changed from Peter's photo. The mounding in front on the green is all gone from the right side and replaced with a kicker-slope. The bunker work is also different. I will see if I have any photos to add...

Bill Brightly

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2007, 09:52:38 PM »
Wayne, thank you so much for posting the pictures, and also thanks to others who posted pics! I really appreciate seeing the full Biarritz green,  Prinipal's Nose, and the Road bunker, features that have been lost over the years at my course, Hackensack, (Banks.)

As for "best Raynor" course, don't you have to start with Fishers Island and argue about 2nd?

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2007, 10:18:59 PM »
St. Louis CC was probably the highlight of my early summer golf trip, I just loved the place.  Having played it and its more renowned crosstown neighbor in the same day I know where I would like to be a member.  I just thought SLCC was a blast, tons of fun with just the right ammount of quirk.

Thanks guys for the pics!
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2007, 02:49:18 PM »
The Best Raynor starts with The Course at Yale. For people who have played most of the good Raynor designs, I'm not sure this point is arguable.


Tony


wsmorrison

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2007, 02:56:06 PM »
Would you characterize Yale as a Raynor or a Macdonald?  What is the definitive list of Macdonald courses anyway?  Is there a list of courses that Raynor was surely in charge of?  I have always thought these course designs were headed by CBM:

Chicago GC
NGLA
Piping Rock
St. Louis CC
Sleepy Hollow
Old White
Links
Lido
Creek
Yale
Mid-Ocean

Oh, and Merion East, of course  ;D
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 03:07:59 PM by Wayne Morrison »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2007, 03:07:07 PM »
Jeff:

I'm confused. Which holes - by name - have had changes made to them?

Was it Silva's work?

Anthony


ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2007, 03:33:39 PM »
"Mr. Macdonald, who served on the advisory committee, was familiar with the plans from the outset, but Mr. Raynor was the real genius of the masterpiece, who made the layout, designed the greens and gave the work of construction his supervision from start to finish."
--Charles Banks, as quoted in The Evangelist of Golf.

Deepdale, Gibson Island, Shinnecock Hills and most likely some of what was Ocean Links, were Macdonald courses.

Mike Sweeney

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2007, 04:17:16 PM »
"Mr. Macdonald, who served on the advisory committee, was familiar with the plans from the outset, but Mr. Raynor was the real genius of the masterpiece, who made the layout, designed the greens and gave the work of construction his supervision from start to finish."
--Charles Banks, as quoted in The Evangelist of Golf.

Deepdale, Gibson Island, Shinnecock Hills and most likely some of what was Ocean Links, were Macdonald courses.

If we are going to credit Donald Ross with 400 courses, then CB Mac gets some credit for Yale:

http://research.yale.edu/wwkelly/Yale-golf/Topics/ArchitectPages/Macdonald.html

By the anniversary of Adee’s letter, his good friend Charles Macdonald [age 68], who had “renounced having anything to do with building another golf course” [7], had agreed to serve as a consultant, and Seth Raynor had been hired as the architect. A 36-hole plan was drawn, financing for Course No. 1 was arranged, and the Athletic Board of Control authorized the execution of contracts, so that construction could begin.

Macdonald wrote that “the building of it was a difficult engineering problem.”

The land was high, heavily wooded, hilly and no part of it had been cultivated for over forty years. There were no roads or houses upon it. It was a veritable wilderness when given to Yale….When in the timber one could not see fifty feet ahead, the underbrush was so thick. However, we found on the high land wonderful deposits of sea sand, indicating that the sea must have swept the land during the glacial period. In a bog some quarter of a mile long we found deposited some four to six feet of wonderful rich black muck. These two deposits of sand and muck made it possible to build the course. [7]

There is no evidence that C B Macdonald visited the construction site or saw the course after it opened on April 15, 1926. That was the work of Seth Raynor, Charles Banks, Ralph Barton, and Bill Perkins. Macdonald was involved in the design and construction of 15 golf courses from 1893 to 1926. He accepted no fee for any of this work. Significantly, when he wrote his autobiography he chose to write about only four courses, National, Lido, Mid-Ocean and Yale. [1]

____________________________

PS. I am pretty sure that Raynor only spent 1 visit at Mountain Lake. How much credit should Olmstead receive?

« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 04:22:07 PM by Mike Sweeney »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2007, 04:35:37 PM »
Macdonald does mention Ocean Links in his book.
The drawing of Yale shows an early incarnation. The 5th and 15th holes were flipped during construction with the 5th becoming the short and the 15th the Eden.

How long was Raynor at Mountain Lake is important as is who from the firm was on site. Ross gets credit for courses that he never saw in person so if you want to give Macdonald credit for Yale go right ahead but that means Rocco Nocco gets partial credit for Ocean Links.

Tony


wsmorrison

Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2007, 05:08:07 PM »
I think it is pretty clear from the archival evidence that Macdonald was the designer of Creek Club.  Piping Rock and SLCC were likely Macdonald.  Anthony, is there a reason you didn't include these?

George_Bahto

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Re:St. Louis CC: An 18 Hole Photo Essay
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2007, 05:41:43 PM »
Tony said: "The drawing of Yale shows an early incarnation. The 5th and 15th holes were flipped during construction ...."

...... you will also see that the Redan and the Biarritz were flipped as well

gb
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

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