[Mike_Young]

Pat M...
Exactly..that is what i m saying......As Greg says below re irrigation cost...I am ot talking of the cost to install or purchase the system....i am talking of the extra work created on a golf course when it has to be green all the time.....water is the culprit not the system cost....
A good example would be in the Latin american countries where you have a rainy season for 6 months...thus minimal irrigation if any and then you have a dry season..so the first course we did has a fully automatic wall to wall system.....yet labor is so cheap it would be much more practical to have a basic system with no computer and work the system from the controllers or less....

Greg,
I am sure irrigation installation can be frustrating....as stated above...no problem with the installer...just saying there is too much hype in most of the systems.....I have never seen a supt turn down irrigation.....OK supts don't take that wrong

[Greg Cameron]

Mike ,Isee your point re latin america,hand watering is cheap and good as it brings local employment.We in pac norwest irritate  maybe may to oct,yet still need good system.I recall working Broadmoor,Col.,they have 24 inch frost free system,18 inch summer system(big bucks),yet winter dessication from wind and cold could require water in jan.(-10f in morning,70f in afternoon) so maybe no returf or less sod work in spring?.....Other examples u need?   Greg

[Ryan DeMay]

I think it's the misuse of irrigation systems that has led to escalating costs.

Very well.  What would be the proper use of irrigation systems in order to reduce costs?

If these modern, high-tech, sophisticated, computer driven systems are so good, why do I see crew members syringing greens with hand held hoses ?

Because even the most efficient irrigation system on the most maintenance friendly design cannot accurately place the exact amount of water to every spot on the golf course.  Thus the term localized dry spot.

Just as many who have maintenance background have already stated; irrigation is a tool that, when used properly, can yield ideal playing conditions.  Irrigation becomes a liability in the hands of those who don't know any better or are under a directive of "all green, all the time".

[Mike_Young]

I think it's the misuse of irrigation systems that has led to escalating costs.

Very well.  What would be the proper use of irrigation systems in order to reduce costs?

If these modern, high-tech, sophisticated, computer driven systems are so good, why do I see crew members syringing greens with hand held hoses ?

Because even the most efficient irrigation system on the most maintenance friendly design cannot accurately place the exact amount of water to every spot on the golf course.  Thus the term localized dry spot.

Just as many who have maintenance background have already stated; irrigation is a tool that, when used properly, can yield ideal playing conditions.  Irrigation becomes a liability in the hands of those who don't know any better or are under a directive of "all green, all the time".

Ryan,
I think your last sentence answers the question.....
Mike

[Craig Sweet]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people...

Irrigation doesn't kill golf courses, people kill golf courses....

Members/players are getting exactly what they ask for....if they're too stupid to understand the costs associated with their stupidity, that's the way it goes...

Everytime I played our local Country Club I noted how wet the course was....ah but the grass was green and the greens were fast and lush....now they have a new super and he's drying things out, and of course the grass isn't so green and the greens are not so fast, and they have some large dirt spots that use to be Poa...and the membership is all pissed off....it is so easy to say screw it...and give then a green, wet course teetering on disease....

[Joe Hancock]

Because even the most efficient irrigation system on the most maintenance friendly design cannot accurately place the exact amount of water to every spot on the golf course.  Thus the term localized dry spot.

Ryan,

Respectfully, this is a rather simplistic attempt at explaining LDS. Factors such as thatch, organic matter in the soil, Fairy Ring, etc. are all contributors to LDS. LDS is rarely caused by variations in the irrigation application. However, remediation of LDS does include hand watering, due to the limited area of impact.

Irrigation systems have allowed golf courses to be built in naturally hostile environments, golf-wise.

To blame the irrigation system is silly. Just because the system is in place doesn't mean it has to be used.......they don't get utilized without human intervention.

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

Hand water, often confused with syringing, is generally used to "cool" the grass blades during the heat of the day....most of that water will never make it to the roots..

[Craig Sweet]

We are in our "wet season" out here in Montana and I already have  localized dry spot showing...it's a soil condition and really has nothing to do with how much, or little, water I have put on the greens.

Hand watering, with a surfactant of some sort does help...eventually, but, for example on a 10x10 foot spot I might have to drench the area for 15-20 minutes several days a week to bring that spot back...irrigation is not really going to help that situation...

[Ryan DeMay]

Because even the most efficient irrigation system on the most maintenance friendly design cannot accurately place the exact amount of water to every spot on the golf course.  Thus the term localized dry spot.

Ryan,

Respectfully, this is a rather simplistic attempt at explaining LDS. Factors such as thatch, organic matter in the soil, Fairy Ring, etc. are all contributors to LDS. LDS is rarely caused by variations in the irrigation application. However, remediation of LDS does include hand watering, due to the limited area of impact.

Irrigation systems have allowed golf courses to be built in naturally hostile environments, golf-wise.

To blame the irrigation system is silly. Just because the system is in place doesn't mean it has to be used.......they don't get utilized without human intervention.

Joe

Joe,

Agreed, it was a rather elementary explanation of localized dry spot.  There are other factors that do cause localized dry spot.  My point was that is impossible for any irrigation system to put the proper amount of water on every spot on the golf course.  Suffice to say some spots need more water than others.

Hand watering is, and always will be, an important supplement to any sound water management strategy.

[Mike_Young]

Seems some of the supts think I am attacking irrigation systems....nope...
saying...if we need more affordable golf...we need lower maintenance budgets.....and the best way to lower that budget is less water.....if we can live with less water we can initially put in a more economical system.....
Let me ask the supts a question...if you trained on a course with a state of the art modern , newest system.....would you be willing to take less system to make a course profitable???

[Craig Sweet]

The biggest portion of any maintinence budget is labor...there are sooooo many other maintinence "task" that are now demanded by membership that drive the cost of golf....irrigation has such a small impact on that budget beyond the cost of water...on existing courses

On new courses land costs are out of site...sure irrigation might be a huge expense, but if you were developing housing instead, you would have huge infrastructure costs....and believe me installing sewer, water etc has doubled in cost just like irrigation...

[Mike_Young]

The biggest portion of any maintinence budget is labor...there are sooooo many other maintinence "task" that are now demanded by membership that drive the cost of golf....irrigation has such a small impact on that budget beyond the cost of water...on existing courses

On new courses land costs are out of site...sure irrigation might be a huge expense, but if you were developing housing instead, you would have huge infrastructure costs....and believe me installing sewer, water etc has doubled in cost just like irrigation...

Craig,
I understand the labor cost.....and all of the other cost......but if you back off water then labor for mowing, fertilizer, chemicals, electricity and everything drops.....I am not speaking of capital cost.....i am speaking of the cost to maintain.....JMO

[Greg Cameron]

Mike,a welll thought out system will include spare wires to quick couplers or stubs and spaces on on clocks(expansion modules) for irrig. expansion if and when needed or afforded.Hand watering(no waste) for lds will become norm as water costs increase,as they surely should.How about all of Tom Nac's catch basins piped back to irrig.res.,Is that Irrig. cost?Water is money,hopefully not for rich only.Wife's Phillipina,and there I know of case of golf resort well sucking dry village well,it was deeper...food for thought?...Greg

[Craig Sweet]

Mike, you can't just turn off the water and watch your costs drop....from what I understand many of the imputs increase as you move toward "firm and fast" conditions and those costs are considerable...and...if the maintinence crew isn't mowing the membership will no doubt want the pond scum skimmed, or some such ammenity.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, you can't just turn off the water and watch your costs drop....from what I understand many of the imputs increase as you move toward "firm and fast" conditions and those costs are considerable...and...if the maintinence crew isn't mowing the membership will no doubt want the pond scum skimmed, or some such ammenity.

Craig,
Sure you can..   and they cant have the pond scum skimmed.....I am not advocating a specific need to go firm and fast......just less water...less heads...

[Greg Cameron]

Mike ,there's the punch line "less water, less heads" wrong,sorry.More heads,more control=less water(higher capital outlay)if supt. programing reasonably to maintain conditions.Asians think long term,no?....
    How about Seashore Paspallum in southern Climates and fescues up here,no fairway watering maybe,lotsa weeds possibly,spend budget at greeens,but still  scottish($$$)?......Greg Clan Cameron  

[Larry_Rodgers]

Mike,
  Irrigation has been absolutely great for golf. It has opened up areas of the world that would never be exposed to the great game we enjoy. There are many other impacts and debates of the water useage, but without it there would not be golf as we know it today for the masses.

  We once designed a fully manual evening system in Thailand where labor is inexpensive. The operetors could not find anyone to work at night with the Cobra's. 5 years later it was converted to an automatic system.

[Jim Nugent]

Do desert courses require irrigation?  

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