[paul cowley]

Its probably because they do get it.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I'm with Sean on this, but I have an example to confuse things.
I played Birkdale a few years ago. I was alone, I had the caddy master caddying for me. I had paid for 36 holes. The course was very quiet and there was a visiting society playing a competition (from the medal tees).
After the first 18, from the forward tees,  I had been given 4 or 5 iron to hit for the tee shot on numerous par 4s. It was playing awfully short and frankly nothing at all like the course the Open is played on, from the tee at least... The caddymaster asked the secretary if I might hit from the medal tees, given that I was not a bad player (he didn't mention the fact that we could see that the society were really tearing the tee boxes up with driver divots etc). The answer was no.
I was mildly annoyed and I wouldn't return under the same circumstances. The green fee was quite high and I was holding no one up. I didn't ask - the caddymaster did... But that was the club that repeatedly turned down Kenny Dalgleish (very, very famous British soccer player) for membership, for no other reason, apparently, than they liked the idea of being known as the club he couldn't get into.

[Mark Bourgeois]

But that was the club that repeatedly turned down Kenny Dalgleish (very, very famous British soccer player) for membership, for no other reason, apparently, than they liked the idea of being known as the club he couldn't get into.

The way I heard it, they mistook him for the fictional detective "Adam Dalgliesh" and thought he wouldn't pay his dues.  Plus he was known to insist on playing the backs.

[Doug Siebert]

The flip side of my previous post is that even from the "box" tees for standard play, I don't know of any course worth playing in the UK where every hole becomes driver, flip wedge. Indeed, on some holes the forward tees become rather more interesting - turning a drive + flip into a driveable hole with strategic interest. And on other holes, the drive + flip concept brings big trouble into play for little reward; you'd be better off playing 2 iron + 9 iron/wedge.

I have to say that is certainly the case.  Take TOC, which when you can't play from the lengthened Open tees brings a lot of holes into reachable terrority -- at least 9, 10 and 14 would play quite a bit longer from the Open tees.  On my last visit I easily reached both par 5s and drove 9, 10, 12 and was green high but a few yards left on 18.  What did that do for me?  Well, thanks to three putting half of them and hooking my first ball on 10 deep into the gorse which I didn't mention above, I actually finished those six holes collectively one OVER par!

Drive for show, putt for dough indeed...

There's also some of the more quirky and unusual courses/holes to take into account.  What difference would it make to play Prestwick's 3rd from 50 yards further back, or 50 yards further up?  I think the play is still the same...I've never even walked up on top past the Cardinal, so I'm not sure if there would be any point in trying to drive up there or not, but with as short as the second shot played dead downwind plays from the layup spot short of the Cardinal I'd have a hard time believing that hitting up top to a blind fairway could ever offer enough advantage to be worth it.

How about the 15th, which becomes steeply uphill at the end?  You probably can't even keep the ball on the fairway so it'll either roll back down or catch in the rough.  It would be kind of cruel if that hole was 60 yards longer and if you wanted to reach the ideal spot you had to hit driver to its 14 yard wide fairway.  Even the USGA doesn't make you do that!

Anyway, with all the wind there, you could play the same course on consecutive days and find a driver/flip wedge the first day, and even your best driver and longest second shot would be unable to reach the green the next.  If you move back, you might make that flip wedge a full short iron, but the next day you could be hard pressed to reach the green in three.  It doesn't really matter, you play the conditions as you find them, but distance isn't the test in Scotland, especially when the courses are played in the conditions they are meant to be played in.

[Michael Whitaker]

Micheal,

if you don't find a course interesting from one set of tees you probably won't find it anymore interesting 20 yards futher forward or back unless the only challenge the course has to offer is distance.

I'm not proposing that there should be more tees!

On another thread the idea was put forward that multiple tees were the primary way of making the game interesting to a variety of skill levels... and, that without these tees highly skilled players would get bored and average players could be overwhelmed, possibly causing both to give up the game.

I am just asking... if UK courses have gotten by for generations without multiple sets of tees why do we feel they are necessary for different skill levels to enjoy the game?

[Michael Whitaker]

Most of these courses were designed in the Golden Age and I think are the type of strategic course you see mapped out in most of the classic architecture books, with different routes planned for the A, B, C and D players. They weren't designed to have every class of golfer hit 7 iron into the green because that was the shot it was designed for. Instead the tiger rips it over the bunker, the B player gracefully skirts it and the C and D players are reqired to tack their way through the hazards. Courses designed in this manner probably require more thought to get them to work correctly, but prove to be more enjoyable to a wider spectrum of players.

Pete - I agree with you 100% on this statement.

So, are multiple tees a flaw or a virtue in our course designs?

[Kalen Braley]

Micheal,

if you don't find a course interesting from one set of tees you probably won't find it anymore interesting 20 yards futher forward or back unless the only challenge the course has to offer is distance.

I'm not proposing that their should be more tees!

On another thread the idea was put forward that multiple tees were the primary way of making the game interesting to a variety of skill levels... and, that without these tees highly skilled players would get bored and average players could be overwhelmed, possibly causing both to give up the game.

I am just asking... if UK courses have gotten by for generations without multiple sets of tees why do we feel they are necessary for different skill levels to enjoy the game?

I suspect a large component is due to thier adherence of tradition and that sort of thing.  Its the way its always been done, and they don't want to change, because well, its always been done that way....

As for logic behind not allowing visitors to play from a longer set of tees, I would suspect that also comes down to a "because we said so" type of mindset.  Especially as it concerns Lloyds case who wanted to play his second of 18 holes from the medal set of tees.

But then again, they are all private courses, so perhaps you should just be grateful that you are "allowed" to give them your hard earned cash.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Being required to play from a certain tee area is a joke.  If the conditions are windy, then things are equalized.  Unfortunately, I was forced to play Kingsbarns from up tees on a very calm day.  If the course is great, I will never know. I shot a very sloppy 68 and only hit one 9 iron into a par 4.  The remaining par 4's were flip  wedges and the hazards never were in play for my drives.  I would like to face the same strategic challenges that the best players in the world have an opportunity to face.  Incidentally, several years ago a friend was over at Troon getting ready for the Open Q and asked the Secretary of the club for permission to play the back tees.  In a less than friendly manner he informed my friend that only US and European card holders could play the back tees and that since he did not have one of those he was not of that caliber.  After the 1st, my friend simply sent the caddy forward and played it tipped and fired a few under par round.  Unfortunatley, he putted poorly and missed by 5 in the qualifier.

[mike_beene]

Was the secretary's son a Ryder Cupper who plays left to right?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Correct  secretary

[Michael Whitaker]

I observed an interesting situation at Ballybunion a few years ago. We were on a trip that included some members of Clemson University's golf team... one of which was Lucas Glover, currently one of the top young players on the PGA Tour. The college golfers and the head coach (who is a great player in his own right) wanted to play the back tees. They met with the secretary and the head pro concerning their request and it was decided that the secretary and pro would watch them play the first hole then decide if they could continue from the back tees. Three Clemson teammates plus the head coach teed off from the back tees and hit booming drives down the first fairway. The secretary waved goodbye and told them to enjoy their game... from the back tees. Clemson's coach hired a caddy that day and when my group finished our round directly behind their foursome we found the coach's caddy standing outside the clubhouse loudly complaining that his player's score was not going to be "recognized" !?!?!? It seems Clemson's coach had tied the course record that day, but because there were no markers put out on the back tees the secretary and pro determined the record would not be recognized. Needless to say there was a lot of buzz in the clubhouse that afternoon about what had transpired, but we never figured out why the caddy was so upset. Our best quess was that there was some kind of pool among the caddies if a player matched the course record. It was a very interesting day!

[Doug Siebert]

Being required to play from a certain tee area is a joke.  If the conditions are windy, then things are equalized.  Unfortunately, I was forced to play Kingsbarns from up tees on a very calm day.  If the course is great, I will never know. I shot a very sloppy 68 and only hit one 9 iron into a par 4.  The remaining par 4's were flip  wedges and the hazards never were in play for my drives.  I would like to face the same strategic challenges that the best players in the world have an opportunity to face.  Incidentally, several years ago a friend was over at Troon getting ready for the Open Q and asked the Secretary of the club for permission to play the back tees.  In a less than friendly manner he informed my friend that only US and European card holders could play the back tees and that since he did not have one of those he was not of that caliber.  After the 1st, my friend simply sent the caddy forward and played it tipped and fired a few under par round.  Unfortunatley, he putted poorly and missed by 5 in the qualifier.

When did you play Kingsbarns?  When I played there in 2001 I asked the starter and he said we were free to play whatever tees we chose so long as we kept up, though he said most players who start from the championship tees eventually find it is too much and move up.  I believe he said they recommended only those with a 4 handicap or less play from those tees, and I was a 4.3 at the time which I figured was close enough.

I ended up choosing to move up one set from the back anyway because the visibility was maybe 150 yards at best so I left the driver in the bag until the fog lifted about a third of the way through, otherwise I probably would have lost a ball on every tee shot that didn't end up in the fairway (it was hard enough finding the damn thing after an iron off the tee)

I played Troon in '91 and they required an 8 handicap to play from the back tees, which I knew in advance so I brought my card.  The starter did actually ask to see it, the only course which didn't just take my word for it (or my offer to show it) as good enough.  I'm really surprised they didn't make an exception for your friend playing in the Open qualifier.  They could probably just look at one swing and tell instantly he's better than an 8!

[Mark Chaplin]

My objection to forward tees comes when you are forced to hit 4 or 5 iron to doglegs and aren't playing the course as it was designed. Naturally you still have to pay full price even though you don't get the opportunity to play the full course.

At Deal you can play from any marker, as a high single figure handicap playing with guests of a similar standard we usually play white tees down wind or cross wind and walk forward to the yellows for the against the wind holes. There is no fun on on 450yd hole struggling to reach the fairway from the stones in 2 or 3 club wind.

[Brent Hutto]

My objection to forward tees comes when you are forced to hit 4 or 5 iron to doglegs and aren't playing the course as it was designed. Naturally you still have to pay full price even though you don't get the opportunity to play the full course.

I think Mark's point can be amplified as a general principle. Forcing everyone to a certain set of tees, whether that's longer or shorter than they would prefer, tends to eliminate the player's ability to fully experience the intent of each hole's design.

There's nothing more frustrating in playing a much looked-forward-to course than realizing that for one reason or another you're not really playing certain holes as they are intended to be played. Maybe you're playing tees too long or too short for the conditions or maybe your golf swing deserts you that day. Or maybe the greens were just punched and are unputtable. It does seem small-minded of a club to force visitors into a less than optimal experience of their course.

At Deal you can play from any marker, as a high single figure handicap playing with guests of a similar standard we usually play white tees down wind or cross wind and walk forward to the yellows for the against the wind holes. There is no fun on on 450yd hole struggling to reach the fairway from the stones in 2 or 3 club wind.

The morning I first saw the course at Deal I played as a single (then again after lunch with David Dobby). I'm not sure what tees I played on the first hole but I noticed a twosome of older gentlemen playing the yellows on the second hole so that seemed good enough for me. I am quite sure I played one of my rounds that week from the whites, probably the day I played with the proprietor of my B&B for the week. There was no winds to speak of and I don't recall any difference in difficulty except for a couple holes on the inward stretch. I can imagine with a stiff breeze in your face it could get overwhelming for a shortish hitter finshing the final few holes, though.

There are some holes at Deal where I think the correct teeing ground in crucial. The short two-shotter on the front nine (sixth? seventh?) as well as the wonderful tenth are all about distance control and angles of approach. Playing too far back on the either would introduce an unwelcome element of power into two of the best finesse holes I've ever experienced in a 45-minute period of time.

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