Mark: I know many of the guys who are big players in Corvette resortations so let me know if you're serious about restoring the car - I've probably owned 10 1963-67 Corvettes and I know the problems with having a car restored.

Tiger and Mike:

I worked for the Dyes when the CC of Birmingham job came up.  Pete originally told them he wanted to restore Mr. Ross's work.  

Just before construction was to start, Hall Thompson (owner of Shoal Creek, member of the CC of Birmingham, and Caterpillar dealer) offered to donate as much equipment as they wanted for the job, free of charge.  P.B. Dye took that equipment and ran with it ... and any idea of a Ross restoration went out the window.  I always wondered if that wasn't Mr. Thompson's idea behind his generous offer.

Tom Doak,

That's a sad story...

Based on that, I'd say PD had no right to be pissed at Seminole for not getting the restore job there...didn't you suggest the other day that not getting the Seminole job may be what soured him on the notion or restorations?

Quote from: Mike_Young on March 26, 2007, 08:58:10 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on March 26, 2007, 08:57:26 PM

Mike Young,

I think the next fads will be dictated by financial pressures.

Agree....

Mike, Patrick - can you expand on this a bit? What kind of 'financial pressures' are you thinking of? And how do you think those might play out?

Peter,

I've noticed a number of things that I believe will have an impact on golf courses.

First, I've noticed that a large number of clubs that have reduced their initiation or joining fees.

In most cases, initiation fees go to retire debt in varying forms or for capital expenditures/reserves.

The amounts of the reductions have been substantial.
Sometimes by half or more.
Over time, this begins to put financial pressure on a club, especially if older members are leaving and they need to have their bonds repaid.  In addition, while many clubs used to have waiting lists that could easily replace the loss of members, those pools seem to have been reduced or in some cases reduced.

The reduction or absence of this revenue stream places greater pressure on operations and annual dues/fees.

Work that was funded by inititations must now be funded by assessments, and, no members like assessments.

If a club's membership ranks are shrinking, the costs, which are increasing must be borne by a smaller pool of members, driving costs per member to soar, which in turn makes the club less than an attractive choice, financially, for prospective members.

There's not a golf club that I know of that makes a profit in their kitchen.  In addition, the culture of clubs has changed.
At many, they used to be the focal point of the community, and/or socially, athletically, etc.,etc..   Today, younger members seem to have an abundance of viable alternatives when it comes to dinning out.

To react to the loss of use, many clubs installed food minimums, forcing members to use the facilities.
So, in addition to dues, an artificial subsidy, which is an indirect dues charge has been created in the form of an additional annual expense.

As utilization decreases and the costs, fixed and variable increase, the financial pressures build.

Something has to give.

Add to that the following.

Most clubs were 12 month a year clubs.
Many members either didn't use the club in the winter or they headed south for the season or randomly.  Hence, many clubs closed for a month or two or three.  That in turn created another disconnect, culturally.

Now, baby boomers are retiring.
Some of them belonged to multiple clubs.
Some are resigning from those clubs
Some are moving to retirement areas
As clubs lose these longtime members, members who supported the club, in many cases, when they are replaced, they're being replaced by young men who play golf at 7:00 am and are gone at 11:00 am, thus, the club has no ancillary revenue.  No lunch revenue, no card room revenue, no bar revenue and no dinner revenue.  This puts more financial pressure on the club.

When you add up the changes in culture, the utilization patterns, the exiting of long time members, the increased operating costs and the reduction in initiation fees with the increased cost to belong to a club, something has to give.

Since the Green budget is usually the largest budget at a club, it has a huge bullseye for those seeking to cut costs.

And that's where I see the financial pressures coming to bear.

Since the Green budget is usually the largest budget at a club, it has a huge bullseye for those seeking to cut costs.

Around here, that decisionmaking process is exacerbated by the fact that most clubs don't assign a dime of income to the golf course.

And, the one I belong to has never assigned one dime of fixed overhead to the food and beverage budget.

I actually had a board member try to tell me that she and a past president had done an analysis and proven "once and for all" that F&B was subsidizing the course.

Her next line was, "(The superintendent) and his guys do a great job, but they don't bring anything in, they are just a drag on the budget"

And they wonder why the clubhouse isn't paid for after 20 years!

Ken

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on March 26, 2007, 10:35:00 PM

Quote from: Mike_Young on March 26, 2007, 08:58:10 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on March 26, 2007, 08:57:26 PM

Mike Young,

I think the next fads will be dictated by financial pressures.

Agree....

Mike, Patrick - can you expand on this a bit? What kind of 'financial pressures' are you thinking of? And how do you think those might play out?

Peter,

I've noticed a number of things that I believe will have an impact on golf courses.

First, I've noticed that a large number of clubs that have reduced their initiation or joining fees.

In most cases, initiation fees go to retire debt in varying forms or for capital expenditures/reserves.

The amounts of the reductions have been substantial.
Sometimes by half or more.
Over time, this begins to put financial pressure on a club, especially if older members are leaving and they need to have their bonds repaid.  In addition, while many clubs used to have waiting lists that could easily replace the loss of members, those pools seem to have been reduced or in some cases reduced.

The reduction or absence of this revenue stream places greater pressure on operations and annual dues/fees.

Work that was funded by inititations must now be funded by assessments, and, no members like assessments.

If a club's membership ranks are shrinking, the costs, which are increasing must be borne by a smaller pool of members, driving costs per member to soar, which in turn makes the club less than an attractive choice, financially, for prospective members.

There's not a golf club that I know of that makes a profit in their kitchen.  In addition, the culture of clubs has changed.
At many, they used to be the focal point of the community, and/or socially, athletically, etc.,etc..   Today, younger members seem to have an abundance of viable alternatives when it comes to dinning out.

To react to the loss of use, many clubs installed food minimums, forcing members to use the facilities.
So, in addition to dues, an artificial subsidy, which is an indirect dues charge has been created in the form of an additional annual expense.

As utilization decreases and the costs, fixed and variable increase, the financial pressures build.

Something has to give.

Add to that the following.

Most clubs were 12 month a year clubs.
Many members either didn't use the club in the winter or they headed south for the season or randomly.  Hence, many clubs closed for a month or two or three.  That in turn created another disconnect, culturally.

Now, baby boomers are retiring.
Some of them belonged to multiple clubs.
Some are resigning from those clubs
Some are moving to retirement areas
As clubs lose these longtime members, members who supported the club, in many cases, when they are replaced, they're being replaced by young men who play golf at 7:00 am and are gone at 11:00 am, thus, the club has no ancillary revenue.  No lunch revenue, no card room revenue, no bar revenue and no dinner revenue.  This puts more financial pressure on the club.

When you add up the changes in culture, the utilization patterns, the exiting of long time members, the increased operating costs and the reduction in initiation fees with the increased cost to belong to a club, something has to give.

Since the Green budget is usually the largest budget at a club, it has a huge bullseye for those seeking to cut costs.

And that's where I see the financial pressures coming to bear.

That's the most cogent,succint,and accurate explanation of the current state of golf/country clubs I've ever read.With your permission,I'm going to hand out copies to every Board /Green Committee Member at my place.

My fear is that your conclusion will prove to be prescient.

Mr. Mucci seems to hit this one right on the head.  Its a basic supply and demand issue.  I liken it a bit to the railroads in that its the old school style of running a golf course.  Sure the great privates like your Cypress, NGLA, Shinnecok, AGNC, etc, etc, will likely not have many problems. Its the vast majority of mediocre to above average private haunts that are/will be in serious jeporady.  I think this is due in large part to increased competition from upscale daily fees as well as the movement of the game being marketed to the masses as opposed to rich upper crust.

These private clubs will have to either adapt or go the wayside as has essentially happened with the railroads.  I would like to see them take on the UK model and open up the course once or twice per week to public play when the club is the least busy.  It seems it would go along way to serve thier needs for increased revenues as well as keep the course "private" for thier busier days.

Mike,
Side topic, but I have an old vet that I need work on (I might even want to restore it).  Would you recommend the tried and tested corvette dealer down the street (those 2007 models are sweet) or the "specialist shop" who just works on these old "junkers"  

Mark,
I uderstand the dilemma.  I would only send it to the "specialist" if I knew which dealer and where he got his corvette specialist training.   If he had just put out a shingle saying he was a Corvette specialist who had bought an old vette and worked on it himself and read a few books then I would go to the tried and tested.  Funny but we were just talking about this today in a neighborhood meeting regarding historical restoration specialist of homes in the area.  Seems the tried and tested builder knew how to come in and place the historically correct trim in a room in a matter of hours and the " restoration specialist" spent 4 days on the same project while sipping herbal teas, going back and forth to his volvo station wagon for special tools and keeping his birkenstocks out of the mud.  Oh and of course his lunch hours were over two hours while he read Fine Homebuilding....problem with this is perceived value....
Mike

Tiger and Mike:

I worked for the Dyes when the CC of Birmingham job came up.  Pete originally told them he wanted to restore Mr. Ross's work.  

Just before construction was to start, Hall Thompson (owner of Shoal Creek, member of the CC of Birmingham, and Caterpillar dealer) offered to donate as much equipment as they wanted for the job, free of charge.  P.B. Dye took that equipment and ran with it ... and any idea of a Ross restoration went out the window.  I always wondered if that wasn't Mr. Thompson's idea behind his generous offer.

Tom,
Were you there on the sunday when PB took the tree down???

The Fad

Restoration may well be a fad. Fading it is not.

Currently there is restoration work being done on Ross courses in at least 20 states and two provinces in Canada.
I know this because I am in touch with the Architects doing the work.

Among thoses being redone in North Carolina are Forsyhe, Sedgefield and Charlotte, htree of the highest profile courses in the State.

As for membership in Architectural Societies I can only speak for the Ross Society. We still gan another 50-75 members per year and our dues collection is about the same as previous years.

The restorations that are in the works come on the completion of restorations of some 125 Ross courses in the past 18 years.

Michael,
Are you saying that over 33% of Ross courses have had a restoration?  Or did some just have a bunker reedged or a green brought back out to original pad by a specialist?  Just wondering.
Mike

[quote author=JES II
Quote:


Not a side topic at all Mark, more of a direct shot...I'm proud of you.


For my "old jumker" I'd probably want the guy that knows the most about cars and has decided he would like to focus that energy on one type of car. This, as opposed to the guy that loves his Corvette and decides he'd like to start fixing only Corvette's and therefore is a Vette specialist.

After all, what happens if you get into a sticky situation where a part may not be available and the guy has to be a real expert to adjust...
Quote:

JES,
I like that statement.
I think in the golf world there are a few that focus their energy on doing their own thing after working on enough other old stuff etc to use it to better his own stuff.....
The other way is self explanatory
Mike

Mike,

Have you ever worn broken-in Birkenstocks?!

They're really, really comfortable  

Jeff,
I have a pair that are about 15 years old...and they are very good...but not on a construction site with saws etc.....IMHO....

Paul Thomas, JMEvensky and Kalen,

I'm not sure you want to hear my theory on who's to blame and how to try to correct the problem.

I blame those responsible for the operation of the club during the good times AND the ADMISSIONS committee.

While the roots of the problem may extend beyond them, they're easier to identify.

Clubs can get themselves into trouble by constantly trying to improve themselves, and, panicking when a fair amount of vacancies occur, usually, the two go hand in glove.

An example might look as follows:

Things are good, the membership is full, there might even be a waiting list.  However, the club might not be in great financial shape.  There may be no capital fund or reserve, debt, outstanding bond refunds due former members, a dues structure that doesn't support expenditures, but, sufficient new member activity may keep the above problems at bay.

Then the club embarks on a project, golf course and/or facilities.  But, how do they fund it.  I've always believed in pay-as-you-go, but, alot of clubs don't.  The project is voted thru and additional assessments, borrowing or some other funding method is enacted.

Marginal members resign, prospective members see the writing on the wall and defer entry.  Suddenly, a smaller and smaller membership is left to fund a large problem.  As each member leaves the burden on the remaining members increases.

What to do ?

I know says a well intended Board member, we'll lower our inititation fee, have fire sale on membership, get some of the needed funds from a greater number of new entrants, and, most importantly, we'll get more revenue from annual dues and assessments, which is really what we need.

Hence, the club opens up the membership gates.
And, they're no longer seeking like minded members, familiar with the history and traditions of the club, new members who might be linked socially and familiarly with the club and its current members.  New members who have a sense of the game of golf.  They don't care about that.
They just want warm bodies who can pay the freight.  

And so, one year 25 members join and the next year 20 members join and the next year 30 members join, and it a very short time, 5-7 years, the entire BALANCE of the CULTURE of the club has been shifted.  In fact, in some circumstances, the entire CULTURE of the club has been changed.

I've seen this pattern, or ones similar to it over the last 10-15 years.

Clubs that historically were populated by generations of family members, members who knew one another, members connected to the game of golf and members connected thru social, business or other interests, are not populated by a collection of strangers who have nothing in common other than the ability to write a check.

And now, what do you have.
A club that gets its sense of golf from TV or some magazine.
A club that changes everything from the menu to the dress code, on and off the golf course.  A club that changes the decorations along with the "old" time employees.

A club where the new President has been a member for 7 years, plays golf occassionally, prefering tennis or paddle tennis, encourages the use of cellphones everywhere, spends $ 155 in the Pro shop over the course of the year, wants to implement every fad that every other course in the area institutes, thinks the golf course should look like ANGC year round, wants budget cuts and watches PGA Tour golf on TV.

And you want to know how to reverse that trend ?

I think the culture has been lost forever.

I don't know that the trend can be reversed or the culture reclaimed and restored.

But what can happen is that clubs that are heading down that path can stop the slide.  

It starts with fiscal responsibility.  
The club has to look at operating and capital budgets in today's world, not a world that existed 40 years ago when members joined, brought their friends and stayed until they died.
The club must accept allowing the membership ranks to dip without panicking, while at the same time accepting higher membership costs, and recruiting like minded GOLF members.

I know of a club that irrespective of their membership needs will only take in a limited number of non-legacy members each year.  They're smart, they want to preserve their culture, imbuing it in the new members, rather than having a large cadre of new members change their culture.

This is why I applaud the Ken Bakst's and Roger Hansen's of the world.   They understand golf and golf clubs.
And, they're fighting the tide.
Fortunately, they started with outstanding golf courses, but that didn't happen by accident.  Still, it's not easy.
But, I believe that if anyone can do it, it will be done by benevolent dictators such as Ken and Roger.

The clubs that were referenced have the luxury of taking in like minded members.  They don't usually compromise their standards due to financial mistakes or demographic anomalies.  They continue as they always have, making accomodations for today's world, WITHOUT DISRUPTING THEIR CULTURE.

In summary, foolish financial endeavors/mistakes, coupled with panicked Boards and indiscriminate membership committtees have been to blame for the shift or loss of the CULTURE at many clubs.
 

Paul Thomas, JMEvensky and Kalen,

I'm not sure you want to hear my theory on who's to blame and how to try to correct the problem.

I blame those responsible for the operation of the club during the good times AND the ADMISSIONS committee.

While the roots of the problem may extend beyond them, they're easier to identify.

Clubs can get themselves into trouble by constantly trying to improve themselves, and, panicking when a fair amount of vacancies occur, usually, the two go hand in glove.

An example might look as follows:

Things are good, the membership is full, there might even be a waiting list.  However, the club might not be in great financial shape.  There may be no capital fund or reserve, debt, outstanding bond refunds due former members, a dues structure that doesn't support expenditures, but, sufficient new member activity may keep the above problems at bay.

Then the club embarks on a project, golf course and/or facilities.  But, how do they fund it.  I've always believed in pay-as-you-go, but, alot of clubs don't.  The project is voted thru and additional assessments, borrowing or some other funding method is enacted.

Marginal members resign, prospective members see the writing on the wall and defer entry.  Suddenly, a smaller and smaller membership is left to fund a large problem.  As each member leaves the burden on the remaining members increases.

What to do ?

I know says a well intended Board member, we'll lower our inititation fee, have fire sale on membership, get some of the needed funds from a greater number of new entrants, and, most importantly, we'll get more revenue from annual dues and assessments, which is really what we need.

Hence, the club opens up the membership gates.
And, they're no longer seeking like minded members, familiar with the history and traditions of the club, new members who might be linked socially and familiarly with the club and its current members.  New members who have a sense of the game of golf.  They don't care about that.
They just want warm bodies who can pay the freight.  

And so, one year 25 members join and the next year 20 members join and the next year 30 members join, and it a very short time, 5-7 years, the entire BALANCE of the CULTURE of the club has been shifted.  In fact, in some circumstances, the entire CULTURE of the club has been changed.

I've seen this pattern, or ones similar to it over the last 10-15 years.

Clubs that historically were populated by generations of family members, members who knew one another, members connected to the game of golf and members connected thru social, business or other interests, are not populated by a collection of strangers who have nothing in common other than the ability to write a check.

And now, what do you have.
A club that gets its sense of golf from TV or some magazine.
A club that changes everything from the menu to the dress code, on and off the golf course.  A club that changes the decorations along with the "old" time employees.

A club where the new President has been a member for 7 years, plays golf occassionally, prefering tennis or paddle tennis, encourages the use of cellphones everywhere, spends $ 155 in the Pro shop over the course of the year, wants to implement every fad that every other course in the area institutes, thinks the golf course should look like ANGC year round, wants budget cuts and watches PGA Tour golf on TV.

And you want to know how to reverse that trend ?

I think the culture has been lost forever.

I don't know that the trend can be reversed or the culture reclaimed and restored.

But what can happen is that clubs that are heading down that path can stop the slide.  

It starts with fiscal responsibility.  
The club has to look at operating and capital budgets in today's world, not a world that existed 40 years ago when members joined, brought their friends and stayed until they died.
The club must accept allowing the membership ranks to dip without panicking, while at the same time accepting higher membership costs, and recruiting like minded GOLF members.

I know of a club that irrespective of their membership needs will only take in a limited number of non-legacy members each year.  They're smart, they want to preserve their culture, imbuing it in the new members, rather than having a large cadre of new members change their culture.

This is why I applaud the Ken Bakst's and Roger Hansen's of the world.   They understand golf and golf clubs.
And, they're fighting the tide.
Fortunately, they started with outstanding golf courses, but that didn't happen by accident.  Still, it's not easy.
But, I believe that if anyone can do it, it will be done by benevolent dictators such as Ken and Roger.

The clubs that were referenced have the luxury of taking in like minded members.  They don't usually compromise their standards due to financial mistakes or demographic anomalies.  They continue as they always have, making accomodations for today's world, WITHOUT DISRUPTING THEIR CULTURE.

In summary, foolish financial endeavors/mistakes, coupled with panicked Boards and indiscriminate membership committtees have been to blame for the shift or loss of the CULTURE at many clubs.
 

Pat,
I just sent this to the entire board at our club......maybe your best .....I am sure They will say that you should really try "our" chicken salad in our new dining room before you assume no one would join for the food....

Mike,
At least you appear to agree their is a niche for specialists (not that guys like Ron Prichard  or George Bahto were worried)    The training aspect is not worth arguing about as everyone will have their ideas.  At the end of the day it is what you deliver that counts the most.  Just think if no one took a chance on Pete Dye (a trained insurance salesman).  Didn't he use that line one time, "those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those of us who are doing it."  There are different ways to get into different businesses but everyone gets their start somewhere.  Some guys are now soooo busy they can't spend the time like they used to and most of these projects take time and lots of patience.  That creates opportunities for others.  I know when Lehigh hired Ron Forse, the guy who hired him will tell you he was pretty green and didn't have much of a resume but he seemed to know something about Flynn and were it not for him, Lehigh would have hired a "tried and true" and it would no longer exist as we now know it.  Good thing they took the risk and hired a perceived specialist.