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Ron Farris

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2007, 06:36:17 PM »
It is interesting to hear the different approaches.  I have worked without plans while building and also with detailed plans staked with GPS in the field and followed up with GPS to verify the actual built items, namely greens, tees, and lake edges. Jeff and Rod are doing things the fun way.  They have a track record and know what they are doing and must have understanding owners.  Essentially they are contractors not architects.  Jeff do you carry contractor liability insurance and architectural liability insurance?  I am just curious.  Do you have seperate companies for architecture and construction?

Mark_Fine

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2007, 08:24:01 PM »
I spent the good part of a day last summer with Paul Kimber who is/was the onsite golf architect for Kidd at the new #7 (Castle Course) at St. Andrews.  Paul gave me a copy of "the plans" for the course.  Basically all it was is a routing plan.  They gave the shapers an idea of where they wanted tees and greens and let them have at it.  Paul used a sand box (see photo below) to design the shapes and contours of the greens which his shapers studied and then tried to replicate in the field.  I was amazed by the whole process.  Note:  If you look to the left you will see the source of their creativity and inspiration  ;D

« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 08:24:52 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jon Spaulding

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2007, 08:41:51 PM »
A bad question...but if "modern classics" are being created with minor information other than a routing plan, is any form of record keeping /survey (other than aerials) performed after the course is built, for posterity's sake? Do owners ever mandate anything of this nature?
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Mark_Fine

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2007, 08:48:57 PM »
Jon,
Today's technology allows for very accurate records of what was changed/built using GPS and other advanced techniques.  We include these recommendations in our Master Plans and I trust others do as well.
Mark

paul cowley

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2007, 08:54:49 PM »
Plans?//.....why would one want to screw uop a good pirece of papwer for cresssake/?.....no ones gonnto get mine oh nononono....   ..  .
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2007, 09:46:47 PM »
I keep re-reading the question posed by the poster — and the answer is still about 5%...maybe less. And, of this 5% (maybe less) there are still plans at work all-be-them limited, rough, or as Mark documents, in model-form.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Greg Cameron

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2007, 10:10:15 PM »
Gentlemen,recently Catepillar 's magazine(Canada) had a front page spread on a golf course contractor which emphasized their use of a D-8 hooked up to a GPS unit seemingly eliminating "sphaping';cut and fill was pre-programmed.I know the contractor is good(he'll fine grade) and article was part sales push,yet it is thought proviking,no?Brings the cost of#2 shaper/bulker down maybe .I have enough difficulty staying awake for 12 hours,never mind if machine is doing the thinking!!!Imagine Tommy N you could pre-program out lows(catch basins) just like in the old days....' ;) ;)

Mark_Fine

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2007, 11:22:59 PM »
Speaking of no plans, I wonder how many people realize that an architect like Ross (who did many very detailed plans for courses) did none for what is considered his masterpiece, Pinehurst #2.  There exists no plans or drawings of any of the changes or evolutions to the design.  It was all done in the field.  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:23:41 PM by Mark_Fine »

TEPaul

Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2007, 11:24:01 PM »
I've got some hole drawings around here by Bill Coore with some pretty cool overlays and stuff.

You know what---I think I'm gonna get 'em framed because at the end of the day they may be a pretty rare commodity.  ;)

I hate to say this but what the hey, it's been a long time now, but one time walking around a site with a 1"=200' topo with Bill he actually fished into his pocket and pulled out a paper cut-out sort of par 4 hole that looked like it had some kind of hinge on it (at least I think it did--I doubt I dreamt it but that is possible). To me, at the time, that was pretty sophisticated.  All I was able to do is use my 6" clear ruler.  ;)

It's pretty easy to do guys---for instance 4"=267yards which was a pretty reliable tee shot LZ until the USGA/R&A went and let things get outta control.  ;)

These people who use CAD systems and such---I tell you it's unecessary, it's unnatural and it's ungodly too. If they actually take that nonsense out into the field they will probably get struck by lightening. Lightening never bothers me---I never even think about it out there except when I have my flask in hand.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:36:44 PM by TEPaul »

Greg Cameron

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2007, 11:38:43 PM »
Te Paul,ungodly,best laugh of night! Thanks

paul cowley

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2007, 03:59:17 AM »
.....actually you can ignore my previous post as it was mainly gibberish, but;

Sometimes a job comes along [and Tom Paul can attest to this], where you can do enough plans to wallpaper a small bedroom.....and you get to a certain point where you just have to say the hell with them and go build the golf course!

We are currently working on a course in the Northeast and I really don't have a clue where the back nine is going to lay out.....too many options.
The only plan I have right now is to start drinking earlier than usual, probably about five in the morning, so that when the equipment operators show up around seven I will have something for them to do.

I hate to have good men waiting around for me to make a decision. ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 09:25:31 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2007, 09:00:18 AM »
I've got some hole drawings around here by Bill Coore with some pretty cool overlays and stuff.

You know what---I think I'm gonna get 'em framed because at the end of the day they may be a pretty rare commodity.  ;)

I hate to say this but what the hey, it's been a long time now, but one time walking around a site with a 1"=200' topo with Bill he actually fished into his pocket and pulled out a paper cut-out sort of par 4 hole that looked like it had some kind of hinge on it (at least I think it did--I doubt I dreamt it but that is possible). To me, at the time, that was pretty sophisticated.  All I was able to do is use my 6" clear ruler.  ;)

It's pretty easy to do guys---for instance 4"=267yards which was a pretty reliable tee shot LZ until the USGA/R&A went and let things get outta control.  ;)

These people who use CAD systems and such---I tell you it's unecessary, it's unnatural and it's ungodly too. If they actually take that nonsense out into the field they will probably get struck by lightening. Lightening never bothers me---I never even think about it out there except when I have my flask in hand.  ;)

I think everybody uses hole templates as you describe where they hinge at the turn point and extend to the green point.  Whether CC uses CAD or not...if plans are required I will guarantee you an engineer or somepne took their thoughts(routing) and placed it on CAD...IMHO
I use the hole templates for routings and in the field and yet still use CAD because I cannot draw lines as well for the drawings needed for permitting etc.....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2007, 09:20:24 AM »
Mike....I don't own or use templates.
Instead I usually walk the entire site with a topo in hand, doing trans sects across its entirety in square grids of approximately 50'. I have a small inflatable that I use when water is part of the site......and of course a good machete!

I have found that this method works best for me when trying to truly 'feel' the site.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 09:21:58 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2007, 09:49:39 AM »
I spent the good part of a day last summer with Paul Kimber who is/was the onsite golf architect for Kidd at the new #7 (Castle Course) at St. Andrews.  Paul gave me a copy of "the plans" for the course.  Basically all it was is a routing plan.  They gave the shapers an idea of where they wanted tees and greens and let them have at it.  Paul used a sand box (see photo below) to design the shapes and contours of the greens which his shapers studied and then tried to replicate in the field.  I was amazed by the whole process.  Note:  If you look to the left you will see the source of their creativity and inspiration  ;D



Build No. 7 at St. Andrews without detailed plans?!

You can't do that  ;D

(More important than plans are those cans of Tennant's in the photo!)
jeffmingay.com

TEPaul

Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2007, 10:09:52 AM »
"We are currently working on a course in the Northeast and I really don't have a clue where the back nine is going to lay out.....too many options."

Paul:

I've got it! I'll tell you what we can do on that back nine that has so many options. Let's do a back nine where golfers have so many options even they won't know how the back nine lays out. It can be the world's first "hide and go seek" back nine. I think it could be real cool----talk about adventure!

TEPaul

Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2007, 10:17:56 AM »
"Mike....I don't own or use templates."

Paul:

I'll make you a bunch of little paper template holes that hinge and shit. When you come up here we can smooth out some areas in the dirt a few yards square and play with them. Wait til you see my little 97 yard drop shot par 3 paper template. It's really cute.

BCrosby

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2007, 10:41:29 AM »
I think we are getting somewhere.

Clear a field and leave creeks, ponds, ungrassed areas as you find them. Throw nine darts at your topo and put your greens there. Build flat areas near the greens to be used as tees.

Then let golfers route and reroute their own course. You could play an entirely different course everyday. It would be your preferred course, the one you opted to play. The downside is that only one group could play the course at one time.

Everyday would be a new, unpredictable adventure in golf.

On the "Wisdom of Crowds" theory, I hypothesize that over time golfers would come up with the most optimal routing and the most optimal locations for hazards. (Even then you wouldn't be obligated to play the course that way. Minority routings would continue to be an option.)

What I am describing something like Behr's ideal course. ;)

Bob
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 11:49:04 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2007, 11:33:13 AM »
"I think we are getting somewhere.

Clear a field and leave creeks, ponds, ungrassed areas as you find them. Throw nine darts at your topo and put your greens there. Build flat areas near the greens to be used as tees.

Then let golfers route and reroute their own course. You could play an entirely different course everyday. It would be your preferred course, the one you opted to play. The downside is that only one group could play the course at one time.

Everyday would be a new, unpredictable adventure in golf."



Bob:

I've thought for a number of years now that that would be perhaps the ultimate expression in golf course architecture.

To do something like that, however, would require a certain type of site with certain necessary characteristics (a very treed site would make it virtually impossible).

I refer to that kind of thing as "courses within a course" and to do it well and to do it with real multiplicity would probably be two, three, four, five, six, seven etc times more complex than doing a single golf course.

The real key, in my opinion, to do something like that to the ultimate would be to pull it off in such a way that any particular iteration would look to the golfer playing it like it was the only one (that he wouldn't be that aware of the other iterations).

The basic idea would need to be something like a Rorhschach design.

This is the kind of direction that the otherworldy imaginative George Thomas may've been going in before quiting the business and going back to being a world-class rosarian.  ;)

BCrosby

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2007, 11:58:00 AM »
I refer to that kind of thing as "courses within a course" and to do it well and to do it with real multiplicity would probably be two, three, four, five, six, seven etc times more complex than doing a single golf course.

The real key, in my opinion, to do something like that to the ultimate would be to pull it off in such a way that any particular iteration would look to the golfer playing it like it was the only one (that he wouldn't be that aware of the other iterations).

The basic idea would need to be something like a Rorhschach design.

This is the kind of direction that the otherworldy imaginative George Thomas may've been going in before quiting the business and going back to being a world-class rosarian.  ;)


Interesting. One comment, one question.

The Rorhschach analogy is perfect. In the sense that I am convinced that my interpretation of the ink blob is WHAT IT REALLY IS, and your interpretation is, well..., not. (Or am I edging towards psychosis? Is Dr. Katz in the house?)

My question is about George Thomas. Where did he write about similar sorts of wide-open playing options? In GA in America? Is that what finally drove him to become a full time rosarian? ;)

Bob
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 11:59:33 AM by BCrosby »

Yannick Pilon

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2007, 12:58:32 PM »
I don't know how, in today's world, someone can develop a golf course whitout plans.

In most of the projects we deal with, we have to do full construction plans of the entire course before we even start construction....  And that's just to get the approvals....

And before that, with most clients, plans need to be made to help with the financing, generate public interest, or to get the project going, in other words....

Now don't get me wrong.  Is it possible to do courses whitout plans? Sure.  A routing plan helps, but with the right client, it's totally possible, maybe even better!

But the most important thing is: with the right client....

First you need to establish yourself enough so that clients will trust you enough for you to do this without plans.  And then you need to find, or for some, choose those clients to let you work this way, if it is even possible....

I guess there are not a lot of architects today that find themselves in a position to do that.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Adrian_Stiff

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2007, 01:58:43 PM »
Yannick- I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you need plans to get the permission, after that the plans become less significant as the project moves on and the construction starts, provided that at the shaping stage there is plenty of overseeing from the architect or associate.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Brendan Dolan

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2007, 04:22:57 PM »
On my only experience building a course, the only set of plans that were used during construction was the routing plan.  Yes there were other plans for permitting and stuff, but when it came time to build each hole everything was done in the field.  
For irrigation a group of 4 or 5 guys and the architect and head irrigation guy would go out with a bunch of measuring tapes and walk the hole figuring out where heads were needed.  Tees were built by bringing in fill to selected areas, they were shaped and then the architect would approve them or make changes.  Bunkers were flagged out by the architect, who then translated his ideas to the shaper, and the bunker was built.  Greens and other shaping projects were done in the same way as bunkers.  Overall I enjoyed building a course in this process.  It also lead me to change my major when I got back to school the following year from Landscape Architecture to Soil Science(Turf Management).

Brendan  

Forrest Richardson

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2007, 10:07:20 AM »
Adrian — That is not a blanket, true assumption. It dependes greatly on the nature of the project, the land and the type of course being created. I can cite examples that are exactly opposite of the "plans being important in the approval, but not in the building..." scenario you discuss with Y.

To get the best "answer" or comment on this thread, I recommend hearing from seasoned professionals who have spent years working all types of projects and approaches. When you listen carefully, I think you will understand that there is a balance between the importance of plans and field work — in all projects.

One aspect that is not discussed here is the amount of attention and work that goes into each side of this balance. For example, what looks to be a "simple" routing plan is — if done the way most of us work — a very long-awaited solution gained over several months or longer. The work that goes into a routing plan is often not equated with the seemingly simple lines that are shown on the paper.

And, on the other side of the equation, the time spent in the field by the architect may pale in comparison to the time spent working previously with a shaper; understanding their habits, skills and aesthetic approaches.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Philippe Binette

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Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2007, 10:22:26 AM »
somebody mentionned that landscape architect are nearly always working with plans, that's true but the golf architecture has a luxury that normal landscape architecture project doesn't possess.

1) involvment of the client. Most major landscape architecture projects have a city as a client and their interest is that the project is efficient, built with a very specific budget that is approved by accountants. So you'll need plans to back yourself up.

2) the tie-in issue. Most of the landscape architecture project have to tie-in in either, existing hard structures (sidewalk, roads etc.) or somebody else property so you'll need a precise series of plans (grading, localisation etc..)

3) It's easier to to raise a dirt green by 4 inches to make it please the eye than it is with a concrete sidewalk.

Hard structures are hard, not flexible, you don't get 10 tries to make it right. You need a plan

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How common is it to work without plans?
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2007, 02:58:58 PM »
Adrian — That is not a blanket, true assumption. It dependes greatly on the nature of the project, the land and the type of course being created. I can cite examples that are exactly opposite of the "plans being important in the approval, but not in the building..." scenario you discuss with Y.

To get the best "answer" or comment on this thread, I recommend hearing from seasoned professionals who have spent years working all types of projects and approaches. When you listen carefully, I think you will understand that there is a balance between the importance of plans and field work — in all projects.

One aspect that is not discussed here is the amount of attention and work that goes into each side of this balance. For example, what looks to be a "simple" routing plan is — if done the way most of us work — a very long-awaited solution gained over several months or longer. The work that goes into a routing plan is often not equated with the seemingly simple lines that are shown on the paper.

And, on the other side of the equation, the time spent in the field by the architect may pale in comparison to the time spent working previously with a shaper; understanding their habits, skills and aesthetic approaches.
Forest- I was more meaning as a project/ construction moves forward the plans becomes less significant. Some plans are needed obviously and each project varies. My main point is that the 'designed' plans often dont end up 'as built'. Im reffereing to tee plans and perhaps green plans where on site changes are sometimes made. Plans clearly are needed for costing.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 03:01:08 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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