News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


michael j fay

#4 at Yale
#9 at Yale
#18 at Yale

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0

#4 at Pacific Dunes. I have played it four times and do not believe I yet have a par. Seems it is always into the wind when we have been there, which has always been in April. Natural tendency for anyone to play to the left or towards the bunkers on the left because of the beach on your right and once you are in the bunkers or left it is very difficult to get on in two. I keep thinking it is open in front so I should be able to bounce something up there but it has not worked so far.

#16 Spyglass. Absolutely two great shots to get on and down in two putts.

The Redan. Tee shot must be precise or you are dead.

#7 Capilano. Long narrow green. You cannot be off line going into that green and you usually have problems with your stance on the approach. Usually the ball is below your feet.

Bob Jenkins


wsmorrison

Michael,

I don't think any of those come close.  Jim's latest suggestion of C-2 at Huntingdon Valley blows away the 4th at Yale, so does the C-1 and C-7 for that matter.  I can name many courses that have multiple par 4s harder than the 4th at Yale.  I don't think the 9th is so difficult either.  The 18th, is long and deceptive the first time you play it, but the toughest par 5 in golf?  Nope, not a chance.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
James,

In 1901, it was possible for several qualified people to answer this question.  Is anyone qualified to answer this question today?  

I'm certainly not, but here are a couple of nominees based on my own experience:

Par 3
#15 Bandon Dunes, into the summer breeze.
#3 Olympic Club Lake
#13 French Lick
#7 Royal County Down

Par 4
Second John Kirk’s vote for #13 at Pacific Dunes, into the breeze and with the hole cut at the front
#3 Royal County Downh
#17 Bandon Dunes
#8, #9 Pebble Beach
#11, #16 Pasatiempo
#4 Spyglass
Pinehurst—only played it once, but I think there are several candidates--#2, #14?

Par 5
#6, #7 Highlands Links
#6 Carnoustie upwind

Stupid-hard, a la #10 de la Viega
#1 Erin Hills (par 5)—switch the nines before it’s too late, Please!!
#14 Meadow Course, Blackwolf Run (par4)—into the late-afternoon summer sun, this hole is impossible
#18 Straits Course, Whistling Straits (par 4)—unfortunate end to an otherwise great golf course.
Any par 5 set up by the USGA for the US Open at Pebble, Olympic, Pinehurst
Any hole that should be a par 5 that is turned into a par 4 by the USGA for the US Open
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 11:43:40 PM by Eric_Terhorst »

Jim Nugent

A pair of 17's...

17 at Olympic, when played as a par 4 in U.S. Open conditions.  

17 at TPC Sawgrass.




Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Year in and year out I doubt you could find a more difficult par 3 in golf than PV's #5. It's not just because it's so long, it's because of the penalty of missing it on either side. And relative to the amount of its play I would wager it's been birdied less than any other par 3 in the world.

 
I'll take that bet and raise you the 16th at CPC.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
P3's:
17th Sawgrass
6th NSW
15th Kingston Heath
some oldies.....
16th Carnoustie
8th Royal Troon
11th TOC

P4's:
18th Sawgrass
6th RMW
15th NSW
some oldies...
17th TOC
17th Carnoustie
14th Dornoch

P5's:
16th Sawgrass
5th NSW (into a southerly)
11th The Lakes
some oldies.....
6th Carnoustie
14th Royal St George's
18th RCD

Phil_the_Author

Bethpage Black killer par-4's:

5th, 12th, 16th & the most difficult 4 in the world, #15.

wsmorrison

For anyone used to playing uphill shots (Rolling Green members for instance), the 15th at Bethpage Black would not be considered the hardest par 4 in the world.  I don't think it would be for most others, either.  It isn't harder than several at Oakmont, including the 3rd, the 7th, 15th and 18th.  Among others, the 13th at Pine Valley, especially with the new back tee, is far more difficult as is the All-World 5th at Merion even if it isn't played at its full 504 yards.  Merion's 5th could arguably be considered, along with the 14th at Royal Dornoch, the greatest use of natural landforms in golf.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 10:30:31 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil_the_Author

Wayne,

Our (yours & mine) biases are showing!  ;D

I consider the 15th at the Black the toughest based upon comments made during the 2002 Open by the players themselves.

Also, I did once 8-putt from 8 feet away when some sadist cut the cup about 3 inches from the false front.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 :D ;D 8)


JES   As to Wayne's thinking the 15th at PV isn't too bad, remember almost no one, except Crump Cuppers and occasionally the caddies, plays tough pins or fast greens on 15, as they hate to see slow play!

One of my choices for toughest  is the 4th at Royal Portrush,
which has all kinds of scary things going on !
 

wsmorrison

Phil,

Ours are not biases, they are deep understandings  ;)

Archie,

You're right, I've never played PV under Crump Cup conditions.  I imagine all the greens are extremely tough.  Heck, the 2nd green is one of the toughest greens at any speed, I can't imagine being on the wrong section of that green during the Crump.  However, do you think the shot demands tee to green of PV 15 are among the toughest in golf?  I think there are many more difficult.  But as I may have said earlier, the green is where that hole really becomes a challenge.

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another par 4: number 9 at Philadelphia Cricket Club Wissahickon course, 468 yds uphill with OB right the entire length of the hole.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
All very interesting choices so far.  Thanks, I'll add my two cents later!

But... What is it about each hole that makes it the BEST and most difficult example in the world of each type?  

Cary, Eric, Joe, Glenn, Kevin, for argument's sake, narrow your choices down to one of each kind.  

Philip, any par 3 or 5 Tillinghast hole choices or examples from other golf architects?

Wayne, care to compare your first choices with your honorable mentions to reveal why one edges out the other?

Jim S., a par 3 for you?

Doug R., any 3's or 4's?

Doug S., any 4's or 5's?

Archie, any par 3 or 5's for you?



« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 03:59:51 PM by James Morgan »

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 :o 8) :D

Wayne,

I really think the difficulty of this hole changes the most as the greens get faster, as the pin positions are excruciatingly difficult. #2 and #5 also ramp up, but not as much as fifteen.

As conditions firm up the second shot of 15 is no longer benign, as anything left of center funnels into the rough, which dramatically toughens the hole. The hardest pin that was playable (throw out right front on three LOL) is front center on 15 . it is absolutely brutal. Maybe JES III can tell me if it's ever used now as I am from another era vis a vis tournament play .  

For all you Irish lads, what is your take on #4 at Portrush, it scared the bejeezus out of me on my short visit.

Also there is a par three at the CC of Charleston that was almost unplayable in the 80's, was it number 11?

wsmorrison

James,

That's a tall order, but I'll give it a shot.  It will end up being rather subjective I'm sure.  As the thread progressed and as I thought about it more---rather than quickly jotting down the ones that came quickest to mind, I'd add some holes.  Jim was exactly right to add C-2 at Huntingdon Valley and the 13th at Pine Valley is certainly worth considering.

Long Par 3:  3rd at Merion (new back tee)
honorable mention:  15th at Philadelphia Country Club

I was tempted to add the 5th at Pine Valley, one of my all time favorite holes (but not even the best 5th hole in our district) but did not because any shot short of the green leaves a relatively easy bogey.  Of course, anything left, right or over is serious trouble.

The reason I chose the 3rd at Merion over the 15th at PCC is the green.  At Merion, you can see the first portion of the green but in no way does it appear the green is 48 yards deep nor the bunker below the green is 35 yards long.  The scale of both makes it difficult to judge by sight.  Merion's 3rd green is so hard, there aren't any easy putts.  You can over read, under read and completely misread the green.  From the back tee, you can hit anything from a 6 iron to a driver depending upon wind and pin position.  The shot to the front of the green is 216 and to the rear, 264.  Philadelphia Country's 15th is a blind shot, you can only see part of the flag.  It is seriously uphill and treacherously bunkered.  There is a subtle front to rear spine that makes reading the break very difficult.  I think it has been aced less than 10 times in 80 years.

Short Par 3:  11th at Shinnecock Hills
honorable mention:  2nd at Royal Dornoch

The skyline nature of the 11th is being returned and this makes for a very uncomfortable tee shot knowing there is danger looming all around that tiny little green with severe slopes.  The 2nd at Royal Dornoch comes closest to being its equal at about 20 yards longer.

Long Par 4:  18th at Merion (new back tee)
honorable mention:  12th at Swinley Forest

I should have had the 5th and 18th at Merion tied for first.  They are among the greatest and hardest holes in golf.  The unique 18th green (front half back to front, back half front to back) and the demanding 5th green along are the finish of very demanding tee shots and LONG second shots off difficult lies.  These holes are supremely demanding to all players.

The 12th at Swinley is a gem of a design with a wonderful kicker that you can use on the left to feed the ball onto the very interesting green.  I think it is a beautiful hole and extremely difficult.  The tee shot to the dogleg hole is very intimidating and the long approach requires precision on the ground or in the air.

Short Par 4:  5th at Royal St. George's (if 420 is short these days)
honorable mention:  11th at Huntingdon Valley

I chose the 5th at RSG from one round of play.  I don't know it that well, but I remember walking away from that hole wanting to play it again right away.  It was hard, dramatic but fair.  I cannot really say why I think it is so hard, it probably isn't the hardest medium par 4, but it is one of the best.

HVCC's 11th is shorter than the 5th at RSG but the approach is one difficult shot with overhanging branches, a center spine on the shallow green and slopes that can feed the ball into the fronting creek.  It is one hard hole that requires hitting a small ideal landing area within great fairway width.  You had better use your noggin before playing this hole for the first time, or fiftieth for that matter.

Long Par 5:  12th at Oakmont CC
honorable mention:  3rd at Philadelphia Country Club

The recent write-up on the 12th at Oakmont says why this hole is so hard better than I could.  It is both strategic and penal with bunkers that are deep and punishing.  The green is very difficult once you finally get there.  It is a seriously long hole, even if it is downhill.

Maybe the best bunkering on an inland hole.  You have to tack your way around this hole like an expert sailor.  The bunkers are perfectly placed.  The approach shot demand sets up the prior two shots.  The green runs away from you and is expertly bunkered.  Any approach shots taken from the right rough have to deal with an elevated shot with a large and deep bunker flanking the right side of the green.  Approaches that finish in the bunker or below it will leave very little if any of the flag visible.  Putts are much quicker front to back than you think and slower back to front.  It is a great test of a par 5.

Short Par 5:  16th at Shinnecock Hills
honorable mention:  4th at Bethpage Black

Beautifully bunkered, about as perfect as the inland bunkering of Phila Country's 3rd (it was once the 18th where Snead met his demise in the 1939 Open).  It has terrific views of the hillside and clubhouse.  Yet the tee to green demands are great, especially so on a windy day.  The bunkering closes up the front so that a precise aerial shot needs to be played.  Ask Tom Paul about putts from back to front.  From the middle of the back of the green, you could putt along the left and right edges and down the middle and they'll end up right near each other.  It is hard to believe and impossible to read that way.

While I think the bunkering on this hole and others at BB are over the top in size and shape, this is one difficult hole even with a so-so green.  I can think of other holes more difficult, but I didn't want to hurt Phil's feelings  ;) nor did I want to load up the list with Flynn's.  I think it is an excellent hole, but I could easily substitute other holes for this.

wsmorrison

Powell,

There's a lot of Flynn on that 9th hole at Phila Cricket.  When we get together I'll show you the drawings and a news article that details Flynn's work there.

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Powell,

There's a lot of Flynn on that 9th hole at Phila Cricket.  When we get together I'll show you the drawings and a news article that details Flynn's work there.

Flynn and Tillie have gotten the best of me there many times!
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is it about each hole that makes it the BEST and most difficult example in the world of each type?  

RCD #7 Uncertainty, in the blind, uphill, typically cross-winded tee shot to a tiny target, knowing that if you miss you've still got quite a science project on your hands.  I think you could play that hole 100 days in a row and still feel uncertain on the 101st.

Pebble #8 and Highlands Links #7 both have discomfort in the tee shot, though less than at RCD #7, and both require two very well-executed shots before you can even start thinking about par.  You might start thinking about par as your second shot on PB#8 falls to the earth, and you might still be surprised when it reaches its final resting place!  At Highlands Links #7, most mortals would still have plenty of work to do after two good shots to make par.  

So, uncertainty and a heightened requirement for precision--that's what makes these holes the Best Hard Holes I've played.


Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
James,

I'm actually not sure I'd name CPC #16 as the most difficult par 3, I was just responding to TEPaul's claim that PV's 5th would be the least birdied par 3 in the world.  Given the wind and psychological factors, I think CPC 16's gotta be a tougher birdie.

But the most difficult?  I guess that depends on how you want to define "most difficult".  Does that mean fewest birdies and pars, highest average score or what?  Some holes lend themselves well to making it really damn hard to get a birdie or even a par, but aren't going to generate the number of triples and quads others can, leading to a higher average score even if there's also the chance for a birdie with a well played (or lucky) tee shot!

So I don't know whether I'd put CPC's 16th up for the toughest, because that bailout would seem to lend itself well to a fairly uneventful bogey, while a hole with no room to puss out like Sawgrass' 17th probably sees higher average scores as a result.

I definitely couldn't say I'd include Carnoustie's 16th on my list as some did here, given my lifetime average of 1.5 on the hole ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Doug, gotcha, a lot does depend on the definition.

Not just most difficult, BEST and most difficult.  The thread title is misleading, though it is the title of Hutchinson's original article.  





« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 05:28:01 AM by James Morgan »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
A few years after Hutchinson's article appeared, Macdonald went abroad to reflect on the "whys" and "wherefores" [his words] of golf holes:

"In 1906, after four months in Europe, I completed my research studies and brought home with the surveyors' maps of the more famous holes; the Alps, Redan, Eden, and the Road Hole, also some twenty or thirty sketches, personally drawn of holes embodying distinctive features, which in themselves seemed misplaced, but could be utilized to harmonize with a certain character of undulating ground and lay the foundation for an ideal hole."

-Scotland's Gift, p.143

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wayne and Archie,

Fast or slow, the green on #15 at Pine Valley is as tough as any I've seen on a par 5. The shot demands to get there are significant and well documented. Also, I'm just logging my vote, not telling you it needs to be yours...but...if you're looking for a highest cummulative score from 10 players from a full range of handicaps I'll put my money on #15...especially if (as James Morgan requests) some degree of high quality golf is included in the hole requirements.


James,

Par 3's and 4's:

4's - Might have to agree with Wayne and call a tie between #5 and #18 at Merion from the new back tees. Off the charts difficult, and very good to great in quality.

3's - Hate to give Pine Valley two holes, but #5 is the toughest I have played. Extreme length, extreme penalty on three sides, extreme putting challenge.

Jim Nugent

I took this thread to mean what are the best most difficult holes, not merely the most difficult.  There is no prize for a hole being difficult unless there is something about the hole which makes it great.

Ciao

Didn't the (Best &) get added later to the title?  I sure did not mean that #17 at TPC Sawgrass is one of the world's best par 3's.  Only that is one of the hardest.  

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
I took this thread to mean what are the best most difficult holes, not merely the most difficult.  There is no prize for a hole being difficult unless there is something about the hole which makes it great.

Ciao


Didn't the (Best &) get added later to the title?  I sure did not mean that #17 at TPC Sawgrass is one of the world's best par 3's.  Only that is one of the hardest.  


Jim, I edited the title this morning because some were responding just to the title of the thread and not to the entire content of my original query.  

See my post #38 and response to Doug this morning for fuller explaination.    ;)