Sean:

Yes, time goes get lost for sure in post-round bsing and drinking, and one could perhaps save time in this instance by foregoing such.  But on trips like this, that tends to occur at night so I don't see that as an issue here.  And again given the location of AS, well... it seems a lot to do as a drive-in, drive-out.

But yes, time and money are indeed great concerns for me, with time being more so.  So this is a bad hobby for sure.  Sad thing is the hobby preceded the concerns, and turned into an addiction long before the concerns existed as well.

Such is life.

Garland:

I supposed I should clarify the interests of said mythical golfer.

He does like to seek out and play great golf courses and will travel and sacrifice to do so.

He just is concerned 99% with the playing of such courses and 1% studying WITHOUT PLAYING.

So he would drive to Globe for sure if conditions were not an issue.  But he would be pissed if he drove all the way out there and all he could do in reality was study.

Does that help?

Tom,

Your new criteria says drive to Globe and play! What is this nonsense about 1% WITHOUT PLAYING? No matter how bad Matt Ward thinks the conditions are, there are a huge number of golf courses in the world that have worse conditions and many people REALLY ENJOY PLAYING THEM. You want to see some? Next time you are in Addis Abebe, Ethiopia, try out the course there!  

I was hitting shots off bare dirt in the fairways at Black Mesa last fall and I don't see anyone getting on here and complaining about that. Perhaps they just "improved" their lies.

Quote from: Jay Flemma on February 12, 2007, 11:54:34 AM

Wayne...off the top of my head there's a great biarritz, a solid redan and a good punchbowl.

Cary, by any chance were you there before me?  Prior to Jan of 2006?  Or after? I did hear things are getting incrementally better...

Tom, look if I had three rounds in the Greater Phoenix area, I'd probly take it easy on the driving and stay in town, but if I had five rounds, I'd go play it...but the ONLY reason I say that is the conditioning...strictly form a design standpoint, I think AS is better than we-ko-pa cholla and TSN, but the two hour drive and the spartan conditions detract a little.  Personally, I like We-ko-pa the most in the area.  I also have a soft spot for the Pinnacle Course at Troon, Boulders South and Ventana Canyon.

I have not yet played the saguaro.

Jay, I'm sorry, I don't remember playing anything like a Biarritz at Apache Stronghold.. The 17th has probably the right distance and is a two-tier affair but only has bunkering on the right..

The 11th has two ridges running north/south from the orientation of play and I would not call it a biarritz at all.. I'm not sure if Tom has ever called it that but nobody I know would call that hole a biarritz ever.. It certainly isnt a template hole in my estimation and I've seen about 15 Raynors/CB Macs and played a lot of Biarritzes.. A green with a swale running thru it does not make a Biarritz..

Its the 6th hole.  BTW, I played it that day with Brian Silva and he yelled back from the green that I was going to be happy when I saw that green as it was my favorite (well second favorite...my fave is the lions mouth).  Just because the hole is not a par three doesn't mean the green can't be a biarritz.  Look at 5 at Arcadia Bluffs.

Tom,

Your new criteria says drive to Globe and play! What is this nonsense about 1% WITHOUT PLAYING? No matter how bad Matt Ward thinks the conditions are, there are a huge number of golf courses in the world that have worse conditions and many people REALLY ENJOY PLAYING THEM. You want to see some? Next time you are in Addis Abebe, Ethiopia, try out the course there!  

I was hitting shots off bare dirt in the fairways at Black Mesa last fall and I don't see anyone getting on here and complaining about that. Perhaps they just "improved" their lies.

Not sure when I'll next be in Addis Abbaba but thanks for the chuckle as one can't read or say that without doing so... especially if one harkens back to Superman movies.

 

But I'm still not convinced.  Did you also read that time is of the essence and the mythical golfer would forfeit a chance at TWO other courses to play AS (given the added drive time)?

Look, I understand poor conditions can be overlooked; and some dirt patches here and there are never going to be a bad thing so long as the greens are decent.

But the reports seem to be that at least until recently, it was ALL dirt, and that included the greens in a lot of places.

If it is just some dirt patches here and there, then hell yes it would seem to be worth it as from all accounts the course in terms of design and layout is very fun to play.

I - or er I meant the mythical golfer - just wants a straight answer as to how bad it is.  And so far Cary is the only one who seems to have given one.

TH

Quote from: Noel Freeman on February 12, 2007, 12:44:30 PM

Quote from: Jay Flemma on February 12, 2007, 11:54:34 AM

Wayne...off the top of my head there's a great biarritz, a solid redan and a good punchbowl.

Cary, by any chance were you there before me?  Prior to Jan of 2006?  Or after? I did hear things are getting incrementally better...

Tom, look if I had three rounds in the Greater Phoenix area, I'd probly take it easy on the driving and stay in town, but if I had five rounds, I'd go play it...but the ONLY reason I say that is the conditioning...strictly form a design standpoint, I think AS is better than we-ko-pa cholla and TSN, but the two hour drive and the spartan conditions detract a little.  Personally, I like We-ko-pa the most in the area.  I also have a soft spot for the Pinnacle Course at Troon, Boulders South and Ventana Canyon.

I have not yet played the saguaro.

Jay, I'm sorry, I don't remember playing anything like a Biarritz at Apache Stronghold.. The 17th has probably the right distance and is a two-tier affair but only has bunkering on the right..

The 11th has two ridges running north/south from the orientation of play and I would not call it a biarritz at all.. I'm not sure if Tom has ever called it that but nobody I know would call that hole a biarritz ever.. It certainly isnt a template hole in my estimation and I've seen about 15 Raynors/CB Macs and played a lot of Biarritzes.. A green with a swale running thru it does not make a Biarritz..

Its the 6th hole.  BTW, I played it that day with Brian Silva and he yelled back from the green that I was going to be happy when I saw that green as it was my favorite (well second favorite...my fave is the lions mouth).  Just because the hole is not a par three doesn't mean the green can't be a biarritz.  Look at 5 at Arcadia Bluffs.

Jay- This is the 6th green from the club's website.. It doesnt look very Biarritz like to me...



This is what Ran wrote about the hole:

6th hole, 310 yards: A fine 'half-par' hole and Doak's first reachable two-shotter. Even though the authors wonder if this hole has become slightly overrated relative to the merits of other holes on the course, it is notable because it is a drivable two-shotter that, well, is drivable. This element adds much more excitement than other short two-shotters (e.g., the 15th at World Woods (Pine Barrens)) where your Sunday best still leaves a 20-40 yard pitch. The prospect of an eagle putt offers more temptation than a pitch or chip. Also, this hole occupies the authors' favorite part of the property, one that offers no hint whatsoever of anything else in the world.

--Ran would never miss describing a biarritz green on a drivable par 4, or at least that is my guess..

 

...

Re: Black Mesa - The situation described was a one-time aspect given weather conditions that occurred there. AS is a far different situation in that regard.

What does that "one-time aspect given weather conditions that occurred there" mean?

Noel Freeman:

Not that I recall.

Garland Bayley:

Black Mesa experienced a turf situation that nearly all other NM courses went through during the time frame. It was an aberation and I can attest to the turf being light years beyond what I have found from the three visits I have made to AS.

It took place last year after the winter had concluded.

Other courses I visited within close proximity to Black Mesa also faced similar issues of varying intensity.

Let's stay focused shall we -- most courses do go through periods where turf is stressed or have problems. The difference is that for the most part the turf is in very playable condition and works in tandem with the quality of the design.

AS has had much more deeper and persistent issues on the turf side.

I happen to be sitting in an ideal seat to witness your pompous nature.  ...

...

Re: Black Mesa - The situation described was a one-time aspect given weather conditions that occurred there. AS is a far different situation in that regard.

...
Black Mesa experienced a turf situation that nearly all other NM courses went through during the time frame. It was an aberation and I can attest to the turf being light years beyond what I have found from the three visits I have made to AS.

It took place last year after the winter had concluded.

Other courses I visited within close proximity to Black Mesa also faced similar issues of varying intensity.

Let's stay focused shall we -- ...

I can understand how people would come to the conclusion in the first quote.

I understand, because in the following quotes we find you expounding on something you appear to know nothing about (since you refuse to give details), and apparently believe that it will come true or will be believable if you say it often enough.

The other reason you would seem to know nothing about what you are talking about is that you appeared to me to be responding to my comments about hitting off of bare dirt in the fairways. Since it was obvious to me that the bare dirt was the result of heavy cart traffic, I was wondering whether you thought it had been raining golf carts all over NM. Also, since the conditions occurred in the fall after a year of continuing monsoon, which gives them no excuse for not enough water causing turf problems. (here in the PNW we believe that rain encourages grass growth, I don't know what you believe in NJ)

"5th hole, 465 yards: Unlike the fourth, the fifth is straightaway and again allows plenty of room once a bunker some 200 yards out on the left has been cleared. The approach is to the most severe and controversial green on the course, with its front shelf some 15 yards deep before dropping off to the remaining rolling 25 yards of putting surface. The most difficult two-shotter on the course, and by a good margin."

Ran describes the green without mentioning a back upper shelf. Not a Biarritz.

What is the reason that they are having such a difficult time maintaining the course?  Is it fairways, tees, greens, bunkers, etc. or is it everything?

I've never been there, but would think it might be difficult for Mr. Doak to devote so much time to a design and then see it struggle due to poor maintenance practices.

I'd be interested in all of your thoughts...

...
With respect to conditions, shouldn't the people who played most recently be given more weight in their opinions than others, regardless of how many times they've played AS?

Especially since the course under consideration made up their minds to do better and brought Tom Doak's organization back in to help them with it last year.