[Tom Huckaby]

Just keep in mind that in that the possibility does exist that Vista Verde is a better course than We-Ko-Pa regardless of price.  The same can not be said of Pacific Grove and Pebble.

That is a very good point, and why I said I am likely stretching things in my analogy.

I wonder though it it changes the answer... I don't think so, and from your post above it looks like you don't think so either, JK....

It does make it a lot less clear-cut in any case.  Playing VV and not WKP-S might leave zero regrets.  I can't say that about playing PG Muni and not Spyglass assuming one can afford Spyglass (note I used that instead of Pebble because Pebble is out of the stratosphere price-wise).

[Jason Topp]

Just keep in mind that in that the possibility does exist that Vista Verde is a better course than We-Ko-Pa regardless of price.  The same can not be said of Pacific Grove and Pebble.

Believe me all the Vista Verde talk has me intrigued.

Nick - If you have a full day, play them both.  It would be fun to find out what, in retrospect, you would have chosen.

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

I'm not sure someone can see how good Vista Verde is without playing a Coore and Crenshaw first so he can get some bearings on what is considered great architecture by this group.  In my mind Vista Verde is Cuscowilla in the desert with a bunker style similar to the Metropolitan Golf Club found down in the Australian Sandbelt...cept better.  It would have been impossible for me to know that without playing Cuscowilla first.  

Here is a link to the Metropolitan so you can see the bunker style:

http://www.ausgolf.com.au/metropolitan.htm

[Matt_Ward]

Nick:

I was just there in Scottsdale and frankly this my story for any possible consideration -- if you are hung up on playing a preferred archie as demonstrated by the fan club here on GCA then by all means play the overrated Saguaro Course at We-Ko-Pa.

The course is really soooooo low key that the only real juice comes from the time you hit the 12th tee all the way to the end of the round.

In addition, the course is especially soft so that any opportunity to tie in a ground game is more likely not possible at this point.

You have a much better option with Ken Kavanaugh's Vista Verde -- located just outside of Scottsdale via Dynamite Road -- which is the same road Troon North is located.

Not only is the course VERY price reasonable -- less than $100 -- it provides a first rate layout, a wonderful interaction with the native desert environment and the turf conditions are very good -- firm and quite fast.

In my mind-- it's a no brainer -- however -- if you feel compelled to play preferred archies than go to Saguaro. Be forwwarned -- I'm not responsible for your gnashing of teeth after you pay to play there and then realize what you could have experienced at Vista Verde.

[rjsimper]

Matt,

If one was to play the "preferred architects" layout, do you prefer Saguaro or Talking Stick North?

(Having not played Saguaro or Vista Verde, I am simply curious)

[Nick Church]

I consider myself duly warned.

The temptation to finally play a Coore/Crenshaw is very, very tempting.

Your points (as well as others) are taken seriously.

I'm still thinking of way to play Vista Verde in the afternoon.

On that point --- what's the best way to contact Vista Verde?  No website for the course that I can find?

Nick:

I was just there in Scottsdale and frankly this my story for any possible consideration -- if you are hung up on playing a preferred archie as demonstrated by the fan club here on GCA then by all means play the overrated Saguaro Course at We-Ko-Pa.

The course is really soooooo low key that the only real juice comes from the time you hit the 12th tee all the way to the end of the round.

In addition, the course is especially soft so that any opportunity to tie in a ground game is more likely not possible at this point.

You have a much better option with Ken Kavanaugh's Vista Verde -- located just outside of Scottsdale via Dynamite Road -- which is the same road Troon North is located.

Not only is the course VERY price reasonable -- less than $100 -- it provides a first rate layout, a wonderful interaction with the native desert environment and the turf conditions are very good -- firm and quite fast.

In my mind-- it's a no brainer -- however -- if you feel compelled to play preferred archies than go to Saguaro. Be forwwarned -- I'm not responsible for your gnashing of teeth after you pay to play there and then realize what you could have experienced at Vista Verde.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

I'm not sure someone can see how good Vista Verde is without playing a Coore and Crenshaw first so he can get some bearings on what is considered great architecture by this group.  In my mind Vista Verde is Cuscowilla in the desert with a bunker style similar to the Metropolitan Golf Club found down in the Australian Sandbelt...cept better.  It would have been impossible for me to know that without playing Cuscowilla first.  

Here is a link to the Metropolitan so you can see the bunker style:

http://www.ausgolf.com.au/metropolitan.htm

Aha!  The plot thickens... I did not know VV had such things.  Sounds very very cool to me.  But I guess in once sense you are right; it's best to see the original before seeing something that's "like it."  That's why I've always advocated that if one can, one ought to go the UK and play some real links golf before playing the courses at Bandon Dunes.... One does appreciate things better with a proper "baseline."

But of course, if a course is great enough - like those at BD are and it sure seems VV is - then this baseline surely isn't REQUIRED for enjoyment.  It just lets one talk more effectively about the courses in here.

Which of course also has to be way down on one's list of goals and priorities.  

[John Kavanaugh]

A sweet link to affordable golf and Vista Verde:

http://tinyurl.com/2qfrw2

[Gary Slatter]

Nick, what if your lesson is good - you'll have to return every year!  Looks like you have lots of advice, post- lesson is a tough time to consider the merits of a new course.

[Rick Shefchik]

I've played TS North and Troon North (Monument), and I'd have to say I thought a lot more at TS, but enjoyed the scenery a lot more at Troon.

[Tim Pitner]

Huck,

In my mind Vista Verde is Cuscowilla in the desert with a bunker style similar to the Metropolitan Golf Club found down in the Australian Sandbelt...cept better.  It would have been impossible for me to know that without playing Cuscowilla first.  

Here is a link to the Metropolitan so you can see the bunker style:

http://www.ausgolf.com.au/metropolitan.htm

Interesting, I thought some of the bunkering at Ken Kavanaugh's Murphy Creek in Denver was reminiscent of Australian Sandbelt bunkering (from what I've seen in photos and on television).  Is this a Ken Kavanaugh trademark?

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

I understand what others have said about Saguaro and TSN but frankly I find the "minimal" aspects of both layouts to be more of the "less is less" situation for me.

I can't speak for others nor claim to -- but minus the final 7-8 holes at Saguaro I can't see what all the hype and fuss is about.

Unfortunately, there are people on this site who go with the idea that preferred architects ALWAYS hit home runs and those without the preferred credentials aren't worth a look at all.

Vista Verde is well done and if a different architect's name were applied you would have certain people on this gushing and gushing about it's greatness.

One other thing -- if you are in the area try to play SunRidge Canyon -- it's in nearby Fountain Hills and is worth a look.

The sad reality is that there are very few top quality public oriented layouts in the immediate Scottsdale area that are $100 or less.

Candidly, I believe, that once you play once at Vista Verde -- you will simply decide to foresake all the rest and play a few more rounds there. From my background and knowledge of the Valley of the Sun -- I would certainly say you won't do any better than that particularly when price is factored into the equation.

Hope the info helps ...

[Jerry Kluger]

Is We-Ko-Pa a cartpath only facility or is it dependent on the conditions? Did I read that they have electric trolleys that you can use if you're walking?

There are other courses that have been recommended including the Dinosaur course at Gold Canyon and Longbow - how do they compare?

[Nick Church]

Nick, what if your lesson is good - you'll have to return every year!  Looks like you have lots of advice, post- lesson is a tough time to consider the merits of a new course.

Quite true --- in this case, it's short game / putting lesson.  Been working on the method myself using the book.  So this hopefully will crystallize it for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

Bag Longbow -- if you need another option head to the west valley area in and around the Peoria / Buckeye area with the likes of Trilogy at Vistancia and Verrado. Both are a bit better although a clear step or two below the likes of Vista Verde and SunRidge Canyon.

[Tom Huckaby]

A sweet link to affordable golf and Vista Verde:

http://tinyurl.com/2qfrw2

Very cool that VV is included in GolfNow.  That has quite a few Bay Area courses on it and I have used it from time to time.  It's a very cool service.

BUT... clicking on VV now, all I can get is $110 minimum.  How does one get this $70 mentioned?

BTW to Matt Ward:  I believe it's clear you would advise playing VV over WKP-S regardless of price... but please confirm.  Just curious.

TH

[Tom Dunne]

Jerry Kluger,

Walking is permitted at We-Ko-Pa. They also have motorized trolleys and full-on golf carts.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom H:

Yes, Vista Verde is the better choice over Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa IMHO. And would be even if the prices were similar.

Once again -- the spin doctors of GCA have caused others to march to the beat of their drums in terms of star chasing when other clear options -- equal and even greater -- are available.

Frankly, I would suggest all of those who head to Scottsdale to play We-Ko-Pa and leave Vista Verde open so that others can play it like me and my gang.  

[rjsimper]

Ryan:

I understand what others have said about Saguaro and TSN but frankly I find the "minimal" aspects of both layouts to be more of the "less is less" situation for me.

I can't speak for others nor claim to -- but minus the final 7-8 holes at Saguaro I can't see what all the hype and fuss is about.

Unfortunately, there are people on this site who go with the idea that preferred architects ALWAYS hit home runs and those without the preferred credentials aren't worth a look at all.

Vista Verde is well done and if a different architect's name were applied you would have certain people on this gushing and gushing about it's greatness.

One other thing -- if you are in the area try to play SunRidge Canyon -- it's in nearby Fountain Hills and is worth a look.

The sad reality is that there are very few top quality public oriented layouts in the immediate Scottsdale area that are $100 or less.

Candidly, I believe, that once you play once at Vista Verde -- you will simply decide to foresake all the rest and play a few more rounds there. From my background and knowledge of the Valley of the Sun -- I would certainly say you won't do any better than that particularly when price is factored into the equation.

Hope the info helps ...

Matt,

I actually don't know the first thing about Saguaro...I am just interested in the opinion of one who doesn't think highly of TS-N in comparison to Saguaro, which you also don't think much of.  Personally, I enjoyed Talking Stick a lot, but part of that does have to do with the fact that it's different.  

For a guy like Nick, who's going to AZ as a one-time treat, I would probably point him elsewhere to really get a taste of "desert golf".

I am likely heading to Scottsdale in the summer at some point with chances to play 3-4 rounds.  On my list will be both courses at We-Ko-Pa, likely Vista Verde, and one other wildcard.  

Of those mentioned in this thread, I've played both Troon North layouts, both Talking Sticks, SunRidge, and Verrado, along with Grayhawk and both TPC layouts and Eagle Mountain.

That's a pretty good cross-section of the public golf there, I'd say, and I probably enjoyed my day at Verrado most (if only for the "pleasant surprise" factor)

The thing I like most about Talking Stick North is that playing it is almost eerie, in a good way.  I'm not sure, though, that I would recommend eerie to an out-of-towner on a one-time trip.

[Doug Wright]

A sweet link to affordable golf and Vista Verde:

http://tinyurl.com/2qfrw2

Nick,

If you want to speak with a human about Vista Verde tee times call the Tonto Verde pro shop at (480) 471-2710.
I'm headed to Vista Verde for a round February 21.

I played the new C&C Saguaro course at We-Ko-Pa last month and I think it's worth seeing. When time allows I'll comment more thoroughly. The other We-Ko-Pa course is quite good also. Definitely look to play the We-Ko-Pa 36 if $$$ isn't an option.

I'm shocked   at the downgrading Talking Stick North has taken on here recently.

[Jason Topp]

We-Ko-Pa is cartpath only.  We walked the Saguaro and it was an easier walk than many Midwestern courses.

I think Ward is way too harsh on the Saguaro although I think his criticisms have some merit and I agree with his effort to force people to analyze courses based on the merits of the course rather than the name of the architect.  I agree that the course is probably is too wide given that there usually is not much wind at the site and the terrain is by no means dramatic.  I also agree that the course is kept softer than ideal right now, but guess that such conditions may relate to the grow in.

Nonetheless, I prefer that type of terrain to the billy goat type terrain that exists at many Ward favorites (Wolf Creek, Paa-Ko Ridge, Sun Ridge Canyon, Cholla course).  The greens at the Saguaro are terrific.  The course has terrific short par fours in the 3rd, the 7th and the 10th.  I like the variety of the par threes, from a short pitch to a tight green on the 9th to a 250 yard driver to half a football field on the 15th.  The 8th is a very good reachable par five and the longer par fours impose strategic choices on those of us who need to hug the tight side of the fairway just to reach the green in regulation.

Saguaro is a very good course.  For my taste, it blows away the other We-Ko-Pa course by miles.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

You are soooooo right -- by all means stick with Saguaro and the mud-pie turf that is sooooooo soft. Leave the likes of Vista Verde to me and others -- which incidentally is not the billy goat misconception you throw forward on my preferences. I favor a range of courses and the easy "let's shoot Ward with out-of-date stereotypes" is always a quick retort from those who know little about my pragmatic tastes in golf course design.

If you ever get to another Kavanaugh course like Rochelle Ranch you will see another winning design in my book.

Jason, you are right you must have seen so much with the "less is less" style the Saguaro layout provides for well over half of the time there. However, I did like what the course provides from the 12th tee forward to the final hole.

Minimalism has certainly become a drug addict for a number of types here. Time for serious treatment is indeed needed IMHO. Maybe I and others can open a clinic for those who are so hooked that they don't even know it.


Ryan:

If you want real connection to the fullness of the Arizona countryside play Vista Verde. It provides the kind of quiet and eerie sensations you mentioned with TSN.

What I have to emphasize again is that Kavanaugh has seen fit to add a demand on the driving game that is well done -- it's not simply having a wide open fairway look (aka Saguaro) and then believing that that alone is what makes for quality design.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

You are soooooo right -- by all means stick with Saguaro and the mud-pie turf that is sooooooo soft. Leave the likes of Vista Verde to me and others -- which incidentally is not the billy goat misconception you throw forward on my preferences. I favor a range of courses and the easy "let's shoot Ward with out-of-date stereotypes" is always a quick retort from those who know little about my pragmatic tastes in golf course design.

If you ever get to another Kavanaugh course like Rochelle Ranch you will see another winning design in my book.

Jason, you are right you must have seen so much with the "less is less" style the Saguaro layout provides for well over half of the time there. However, I did like what the course provides from the 12th tee forward to the final hole.

Minimalism has certainly become a drug addict for a number of types here. Time for serious treatment is indeed needed IMHO. Maybe I and others can open a clinic for those who are so hooked that they don't even know it.


Ryan:

If you want real connection to the fullness of the Arizona countryside play Vista Verde. It provides the kind of quiet and eerie sensations you mentioned with TSN.

What I have to emphasize again is that Kavanaugh has seen fit to add a demand on the driving game that is well done -- it's not simply having a wide open fairway look (aka Saguaro) and then believing that that alone is what makes for quality design.

Glad to see you are awake Matt.  

[Doug Wright]

I agree that the course is probably is too wide given that there usually is not much wind at the site and the terrain is by no means dramatic.  

Jason,

"Not much wind at the site"? Are you sure? Maybe I was unlucky when I played there in January because it was plenty windy and without the width it would have been unplayable. My sense was that it is windy there quite a bit; maybe others know if that's true.

I agree with many of your other comments though...

[Ryan Farrow]

Jason:

You are soooooo right -- by all means stick with Saguaro and the mud-pie turf that is sooooooo soft. Leave the likes of Vista Verde to me and others -- which incidentally is not the billy goat misconception you throw forward on my preferences. I favor a range of courses and the easy "let's shoot Ward with out-of-date stereotypes" is always a quick retort from those who know little about my pragmatic tastes in golf course design.

If you ever get to another Kavanaugh course like Rochelle Ranch you will see another winning design in my book.

Jason, you are right you must have seen so much with the "less is less" style the Saguaro layout provides for well over half of the time there. However, I did like what the course provides from the 12th tee forward to the final hole.

Minimalism has certainly become a drug addict for a number of types here. Time for serious treatment is indeed needed IMHO. Maybe I and others can open a clinic for those who are so hooked that they don't even know it.


Ryan:

If you want real connection to the fullness of the Arizona countryside play Vista Verde. It provides the kind of quiet and eerie sensations you mentioned with TSN.

What I have to emphasize again is that Kavanaugh has seen fit to add a demand on the driving game that is well done -- it's not simply having a wide open fairway look (aka Saguaro) and then believing that that alone is what makes for quality design.

Why do you feel obligated to demean anyone who praises C&C's work in Arizona? If you don't appreciate it, fine. Write your little review like you did and leave it at that. Your constant bashing of TSN and Saguaro is childish at best. Is it really that hard to sit back and keep your paws off the keyboard? Do we need to get you a punching bag with Bill and Bens faces on it? Honestly you are adding nothing to this discussion; this is not what Golf Club Atlas is about, just stop.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()