I'm sending Brophy down to pick you up and take you to the Psychoneurotic Institute for the Very, Very Nervous so you can visit with Dr. Richard H. Thorndyke.  There may be hope for you yet.  But first, you have to get out of Maloneville, and fast!

As a somewhat accomplished player (and be honest here) how much of the information do you truly use? I am sure you got yourself out somewhere some Monday morning you had off and the flags were out for maintenance purposes, what'd you think?

I've always been more of a feel player - I'll look at the flag and the ground and get a general idea, use 150 poles for reference, and about half the time I'll check a sprinkler for further reference (no pacing off, just getting a feel - I know sprinklerheads can be off).

And if I get out on the course and notice the flags aren't out there, I realize I shouldn't be either and go to the other course

The only real experimenting I've done taking out the equation of yardage and club selection was playing solely with a 6-iron.  I and a few friends did this several times this past summer, and yardage won't do much for you here.  It was all feel, and then trying to transform that feel into the right setup and swing to produce the envisioned shot.

I haven't really played without flagsticks, though - maybe once or twice several years ago in "winter golf" mode.

You guys who run or help run clubs: can't you set up a tournament with no flags?  Might be interesting to see how the scores go, and how the members like it.  

How would you play 8 & 9 at Pine Valley?
Cheers

Mike,

I am giving the golfer a pin sheet or something of that ilk, just no flagstick.

like technology, once the horse is our of the barn it's VERY difficult to bring him back

hell will freeze over before we stop using flagsticks

How would you play 8 & 9 at Pine Valley?
Cheers

Mike

On my one occasion there at Pine Valley, we could not see which green the #9 pin was on (I did not know there were two #9 greens until I approached that green - I knew of two #8's, but not two #9's).  The wind was still and the flag hung limply, its red tinges blending with a flowering bush behind the left green. The good doctor would have been pleased with the camoflauge.  We convinced ourselves (8 of us, including caddies) that the pin was on the right.  One of our group then proceeded to hit a long 3rd from 200 yards onto the right green.  As we got closer to the green, we saw the pin, on the left.  

I think rule 1 (equity) was applied.  Anyway, the ball on the right green was relocated to a similar position on the left green, and play continued.  No penalty.  Seemed like a good solution to me.

James B

Kyle:

Of course I've never done that - no one has (except you, I gather?).  I just don't get why it would make any difference whatsoever.  If I know where the pin is, what difference does it make if a flagstick is in it or not?

I guess I wholly disagree that:

"Information such as "8 off the left, 23 deep to a 35 yards deep green" is perceived a lot differently without a flagstick as a reference point."

I know that perception and the way one plays the game is a LOT different without any knowledge at all as to where the hole is - as I've described before.

I just don't get what's so all-important about a flagstick, if you do know where the hole is.

I've hit lots of shots with the flagstick out, Kyle...if I have an aiming point, the flag is meaningless.

Methinks you're a bit too far out of the box this time.

TH

Tom,

How good are you at estimating 20 feet of distance from 200 yards?

Kyle - I'd guess I'm as good as anyone else; which means not very good.

But at least I see what you're getting at now.  I just don't think many players - even pros - are precise enough hitting irons - particulary from 200 yards -  such that the error we'd have in estimating that would effect our thinking at all.  That is, all that's really necessary for aiming purposes is truly the general area in which the hole resides.  If we know this - and a pin sheet would give us that - then again, what's the big difference if our eye is a few feet off?  The natural dispersion of our shots will make that average out over time - that is, sometimes we gain from this, sometimes we lose.

You're still not selling me my friend.  If I know where the hole is, the flagstick remains irrelevant.

TH

Frankly Tom, I'm not buying the relevance argument simply because the flagstick is SO hardwired into our brains that we take it for granted. Standardization of the height and the general feel of having a "thing" at which to aim are big parts of how we perceive the course and allow our brain to focus there.

Now, I'm changing how the information is dispersed. Now, our brain has to perceive the green differently and use what our eyes tells of the features on the green (and not the flagstick itself) as the reference point.

If I told you that a tree was 100 feet away, and asked you to pick out an object that was 5 feet left of the tree, I'll bet you could do it. You've had a life time of perceiving distances, things of different height at those distances, and relative distances from those objects.

Now, let's say that you are looking at something low to the ground, again 100 foot away, but you can only pick it up by a change in color (like a green) instead of a change in height - I would hypothesize that you would have much more difficulty determining five feet from that object.

You probably get the most practice doing this while driving.

Ever get behind the wheel of a new car with a bigger or smaller hood than the one which you are used to driving? Takes a bit to get used to, especially if you have to parallel park it.

What is happening is that our brains are used to perceiving certain standard things in three dimensions that we big to "flatten" out the standard parts of the picture. When one of those things is removed or changed, our brains suddenly need to compensate by taking in more information.

Since golf is as much about processing the information of the next shot as it is executing that shot - a different slant on the information or a change in that information, and how the golfer deals with that, is just as viable a test as execution.

Interesting theories, Kyle.

And I have seen a little of this in practice, playing shorter flagsticks in the UK and Ireland.  It is different and does take some getting used to.

But get used to it one does... typically all it takes is a round or two.

So there is SOME validity to this - I just think you're making WAY WAY WAY too much out of it. Take away the flagsticks and give us pin sheets and after a round or two, we'll adapt.  And it won't make any difference at all as to how one plays the game.

I am sure as heck hoping one can adapt - that's part of the challenge of the game.

Now - take away the standardization and force the player to adapt in the same manner as having to readjust for weather or course conditions.

Huh?

You lost me there.  Non-physics major English might be helpful.

"take away the standarization"?

Lucy, you have some 'splainin to do.

Some courses with flags, some without - different ways of deciminating the information.

How would you play 8 & 9 at Pine Valley?
Cheers

I'd watch the group in front of me.

Kyle

when you do the draw, make sure Patrick Mucci is in the first group!  

James B

Blind shots into a green are similar to having no pin to shoot at.  Only they are even harder.  You not only can't see the pin.  You can't see the green either.  That target, too, is removed.  

In any tournament without pins, news about hole locations would spread real fast.  I bet this is true for everyday play, as well, among good players and maybe others.  The guy who cuts the holes could set up a nice little side business each morning, selling "hole reports."