[Phil Benedict]

Did anyone else notice that half of Ran's examples of why the Black is a great driving course are actually examples of second-shot bunkers on par fives?  I have yet to decipher how those prove his theory.

I feel like I am dragging Ran's good name through the mud here by starting this thread, and he's not here to defend himself!  May be I should delete it.  Do I still get credit for the posts, because I am creeping up on 500 which gets me a place at the adults' table?

[Glenn Spencer]

Phil,

Didn't I read that you only live an hour away from The Black? I think that is correct from my memory of thinking you live by Winged Foot. Anyway, if you only live an hour from Bethpage, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for not having played it. 18 on The Black and if that is not enough, check out the Red in the afternoon. Red might have the toughest starting hole in the world.

[Phil Benedict]

Glenn,

I live 10 minutes from Winged Foot and an hour from Bethpage.  And you're right. I should be ashamed of myself for not getting off my dough and going out to Bethpage. Top golf goal for 2007.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - see my post above - as much as we disagree on matters concerning college football, we seem to be in lockstep on this issue.  There is hope for us all.

 

In any case I too believe that great driving courses have at least some holes that leave room to bash... in fact the best would have a little of each:

tight ballbusters

wider tempters:  holes that look wide but require strategic choice; ie better sides - and the harder this is to discern, the better it is

wide mindless bashers


TOC would seem to be a poster course for this... hell there are even a few tight holes on the back nine....

TH

[Geoffrey Childs]

While I agree with Bethpage Black (I'm biased) and Royal Portrush I have a couple of others not yet mentioned

Woodhall Spa and Ganton - Those two courses have some of the most wicked and punishing fairway bunkers I have ever seen.  While I am not what could be said as familiar with the courses I remember those bunkers.  I'd appreciate comments on those two.

[Aaron Katz]

Phil, I am a bit biased, but I have never seen a course where the drive was of such consistently important in how both individual holes and the entire course was played than Bethpage Black.

It is unrelenting and demanding. On almost every hole, if the tee shot is not in the proper position your ability to put your approach on the green is either eliminated or greatly reduced.

That is why PAR is such a great score for any hole or the entire round.

I've never played the Black even though it's only an hour drive.  Seems like an incredibly exiting course. When I read what people say about it I wonder why it isn't ranked higher.  May reflect bias against a public facility or the supposed blandness of the greens.  I thought the Open at Bethpage was one of the best ever, partly due to the truly public feel of the place.

Someday I'll brave the crack of dawn and drive down there.

Phil,

The first time I played The Black, I was sitting inside the clubhouse when my cousin (who I played with) asked me where The Black ranked among the best courses I've ever played.  I responded that it would probably fall below Pebble, Olympic Lake, San Francisco, Cherry Hills, Spyglass, and Kapalua Plantation.  

I then thought about it for 30 seconds more and retreated from this, saying that it probably placed ahead of all but Pebble and Olympic.  I then thought about it for another 30 seconds.  I said, "You know, looking back on my round, I drove the ball as well today as I have in a long time.  Yet, for my approach shots, I managed to hit every club in my bag -- from 2-iron to sand wedge -- at least once."  It was then that it hit me.  From tee to green, The Black may provide the most thorough examination in all of golf.  Although the greens are not contoured, it is not as if you can simply get away with loose iron shots.  

[Adam_Messix]

The best test of driving the golf ball I have played is Oakmont.  The thing that most people do not realize watching on TV is the amount of side slope many of those fairways that require the player to correctly curve their drive just to keep them within the cut.  The other more noticable attribute to Oakmont are the amount and more noticeable the depth of the fairway bunkers.  It is very hard to stay out of them and it's more difficult to advance the ball a significant distance out of them.  With the addition of the bunkers on the left, the tee shot on the 1st hole may be the scariest that I've seen.

The other great test of driving that I've seen is Quaker Ridge.  It's been a while, but it's one of the few courses that I needed to be able to curve it both ways to play well.  Now that I think about, Olympic Lake is a great test of driving for us morals.

[Mark Pearce]

While I agree with Bethpage Black (I'm biased) and Royal Portrush I have a couple of others not yet mentioned

Woodhall Spa and Ganton - Those two courses have some of the most wicked and punishing fairway bunkers I have ever seen.  While I am not what could be said as familiar with the courses I remember those bunkers.  I'd appreciate comments on those two.

Ganton was a course that came to mind (with Muirfield) when I first saw this thread.  There are a number of great driving holes at Ganton, though length is rarely the biggest concern.  In particular 15 and 16 are absolutely tremendous driving holes.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Geoffrey,

I agree the Hotchkin Course at Woodhall Spa is a supreme test of driving.  It's a supreme test from tee to green!

The bunkers, though, are just one element that make driving such a challenge:
Hole 1: straight, bunker at 195 (left) and 252 (right)
Hole 2: straight, forced carry, bunkers 222-280 yards
Hole 3: dogleg right, forced carry
Hole 4: dogleg left, forced carry
Hole 6: straight, forced carry
Hole 7: dogleg right, forced carry, bunkers 239-289 (right)
Hole 9: straight, forced carry, bunkers 232-258 (right), and cross-bunkers at 351 (better hit a good drive!)
Hole 10: dogleg right, forced carry, bunker 228 (left), bunker 252 (right-center)
Hole 11: straight, forced carry, fairway narrows with distance, prevailing wind from the left, tree-lined
Hole 13: dogleg right, bunker 223 (left), bunkers 207 and 247 right, fairway slopes to right and tends to push balls into right bunkers (round-wrecking demoralizer)
Hole 14: dogleg right, forced carry, four bunkers all along the right: 204 to carry second, 230 to hit into third, 257 to carry all
Hole 15: straightish, mild forced carry, two bunkers right that are 206 to carry
Hole 16: dogleg-leftish, forced carry (195 yards, usually played into a prevailing wind)
Hole 17: dogleg left, forced carry, bunker 220 (right)
Hole 18: dogleg right, forced carry (200 yards), bunkers left and right at 260; cruelly, you must hit it left to avoid being blocked by a large oak tree, but there are a string of bunkers down the left...

So that's:
3 left
6 straight
6 right

(Fortunately, the par 3s on the course are really, really easy and present no challenge.)

Generally, the forced carries involve heather. Shots hit left or right of fairway involve the "Scylla and Charybdis" scenario: heather or halfway-to-China, card-wrecking bunkers!

Mark

[tlavin]

There has been and never will be a greater test of driving one's golf ball than Fort Ord-Bayonet, circa 1982 or prior.  Those who played it then know what I am talking about.  Long course obviated any chance to lay back; two feet off either side of any fairway meant dead.  Memories.....

Huck:

I recently played Black Horse, the other Fort Ord course, and it was murder on virtually every green, but it was also a demanding course because of the camber of many fairways which pushed good tee shots into the rough.  Hitting those greens out of the rough is no easy task.  I'd have to say that those courses are as demanding as any one would ever play, because there are a lot of mental/shotmaking demands on the player, which become especially tough after another three or four putt.

[Tom Huckaby]

Terry - darn right.  And if you think Blackhorse today is tough (and tough it is, especially the wacky greens), you should have seen Bayonet circa 1982.  Good god... it's tough to explain but it was the ultimate test of golf - the very essence of penal golf.  No fun in any way other than as a masochistic test.  And as such, I loved it, although it went against everything I normally hold dear in this game.

I've ranted about it countless times in here.  Today's Bayonet is still tough and likely more fun for most people, but it's nothing unique any more... and I'm saying that about how it was BEFORE the most recent re-do.  Who knows how the course will be as it becomes further resort-ified.

TH

[Michael Ryan]

My vote is for WFW, but unlike any of the above posts, my reason is the various shot shapes required.

1, 4, 5, 12, 14, 16, 18 all suggest a right to left tee ball (some more than others)

2, 8, 15, 17 all suggest a left to right tee ball.

6, 9, 11 run relatively straight, yet the terrain of 11 calls for a right to left shot off the tee.  More than one participant at this year's Open called the sheer straightness of 9 to be unsettling after the first 8 holes (par 3's excluded) calling for shaped shots.

I understand why the Black is mentioned as much as it is on this thread, but I always felt it was a test of length, not the ability to drive a ball, which I feel are two different things altogether.  And I'll agree with an earlier post, 16 on the Black is the most difficult fairway for me to hit.  

Anyway, great thread, enjoyed seeing the different opinions...

[Chris Cupit]

My vote is for WFW, but unlike any of the above posts, my reason is the various shot shapes required.

1, 4, 5, 12, 14, 16, 18 all suggest a right to left tee ball (some more than others)

2, 8, 15, 17 all suggest a left to right tee ball.

6, 9, 11 run relatively straight, yet the terrain of 11 calls for a right to left shot off the tee.  More than one participant at this year's Open called the sheer straightness of 9 to be unsettling after the first 8 holes (par 3's excluded) calling for shaped shots.

I understand why the Black is mentioned as much as it is on this thread, but I always felt it was a test of length, not the ability to drive a ball, which I feel are two different things altogether.  And I'll agree with an earlier post, 16 on the Black is the most difficult fairway for me to hit.  

Anyway, great thread, enjoyed seeing the different opinions...

Michael,

I agree that WFW is a great driving test although with the added back tees I think that #2, #12 demand a pretty straight tee shot instead of left to right and right to left nowadays.  Also, #8 requires a damn slice not just a fade to avoid going through the fairway on the left--easily my least favorite tee shot on the West.

Other great driving courses:
Royal County Down
Augusta National pre-trees and rough
Muirfield (Scotland)
Muirfield Village (Ohio)  every tee shot felt like you were going to hit it great!?
St. Andrews
Medalist GC
The Honors Course (OK--my home course so I'm biased)

[Patrick_Mucci]

The answer isn't so much site oriented as it is conditions oriented.

The WIND is what can automatically make a course a great driving golf course.

The WIND narrows the fairways and brings the off fairway features into play.

The East End, and other parts of Long Island are replete with courses that present the challenge.

Courses like Seminole and others, such as Pine Tree and Boca Rio also come to mind.

The combination of fairway features off the tee and the wind creates the demand.

[Josh Smith]

Bandon Trails is pretty great for my tastes in this category.  Plenty of width and a lot of strategy,   some semi blindish stuff too.

[Jim Sweeney]

It seems this discussion is trying to compare two architectural styles that cannot be compared, only contrasted- strategic and penal.

It's impossible to say one is a better test of driving than the other. Penal requires the player to hit to a certain spot, while strategic gives the players options, one of which might be more advantageous than  another.

I think Adam C. had it right. Desert Forest is likely the most complete test of the tee ball I've played in the US. It has strategic and penal elements.

Others high on my list would be Talking Stick (strategic), and Olympic Lake (penal).

[JSlonis]

I found Muirfield (Scotland) to be a supreme test.  Here locally, I'd have to list Merion and Huntingdon Valley.  Both courses call for different clubs off the tee and both courses challenge the player to shape the ball in both directions to best fit each hole.

Flynn's use of the hillsides and valley really make it difficult to drive the ball well at Huntingdon Valley.  With the slope of most of the fairways, the golfer must hit the ball properly to keep the ball in play.

[ward peyronnin]

Glenn Spencer,

How serendipitous! My minister just gave me the club history for Morraine and i was pleasantly surprised at what the hole pictures revealed. Looked like they could withstand a tree removal process but the the terrain and green complexes looked very interesting

I agree that RCD must be one of the great driving couse anywhere: it has everything .

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