[TEPaul]

"I find alcohol robs me of my ability to concentrate so there is very little I can accomplish well after a drink."

Ian:

As Eddie Murphy said:

BREATH Brother, breath! Let it out. Let it happen Baby!

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I find most can explain in the most elegant details how they found the perfect tie-in or got the architectural concept to flow. They have an inherent understanding of what works, and what no matter how much the architect wants it to,what will not.

Breathe?

If I have a drink, I either want to cook or chase my wife. Golf becomes a distant memory. I did get a small nip of The Macallan, because of this thread.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I won't drink with a client ever; it seems like such an easy way to leave a bad impression, for something so unnecessary.

Ian,

This is an interesting statement.

You enjoy a beer, right. Why not have a beer - one beer - with a client then? (I know you. You can have a beer without acting a fool.)

What I'm actually thinking is, there are some people (possible clients) out there that would find it strange that you've ordered a Coke after they've ordered a pint.

That's the opposite side of the coin.

[Yannick Pilon]

I have to second Jeff on that one Ian,

Somehow, I find that many clients seem genuinelly interested in getting to know their architect on a more personnal level.  Whether by playing a round of golf with you, or going out for a beer after a long day out in the field, especially if you are out of town....

It seems natural and important to me to sit down with them and spend the time to let them know about me, and at the same time, learn about them.  I think it only strengtens the relationship you have with your clients, and the confidence level between the two parties.

A beer or two along the way does not hurt one bit.  Unless you know you can't control yourself after that first one....  That's a different game althogether!  But being to stiff about a self imposed "rule" can also, because of the perception clients have, "leave a bad impression, for something so unnecessary".

This being said: Cheers! or as we say in french: Santé!

YP

[Tom_Doak]

Yannick / Jeff:

Would you turn down a job because the client wouldn't have a beer with you?

[Phil_the_Author]

Yannick/Jeff,

I don't drink, and not for anything other than I just really don't care for alcohol. In addition, I take a number of medications on a daily basis that would not interact well with it.

That being said, I have never found myself in an awkward situation because I wans't drinking and someone else was. The key is in making them not feel awkward because you aren't. If you can't do that than most likely you have blown the interview/job anyway!

[TEPaul]

"If I have a drink, I either want to cook or chase my wife."

Ian:

Nothing wrong with that. You know what they say---too much architecture can make Jack a dull boy.

[paul cowley]

Personally I find alcohol can be a good tool and helpful during the design process.
I have had many inspirations and exciting new thoughts while relaxing with a six pack or a bottle of wine as the day diminishes. I also find inspiration while enjoying a good cup of coffee at dawn.
Sometimes I can be over inspired and forget what time it is....but that is rare, as I usually have to integrate my schedule with others.

There are times during construction that the atmosphere is not always the best for contemplation, especially when things are really happening, and many people and pieces of equipment are dependant on you for design direction.
My preference is to spend the twilight or evening hours, after all others have left, wandering the site, checking what has happened and getting ready for what is coming next....and  basically grading my paper. Security is alerted early on that they will probably see me, or my truck or ATV at all hours of the night.....I have spent many an overnight on many projects, as I can sleep quite comfortably in the front seat of a pickup.
And most of the time I have some form of alcohol with me ...and I feel it has some benefit as a design tool in these situations.

On another level I have found that alcohol can also promote a beneficial relationship with certain clients...so I guess in that sense it is a social design tool as well.

But to each his own....and, as in most things, moderation is usually the best course. [on or off the course, of course].

[TEPaul]

Paul:

There you have it. Great post.

I say to hell with all these health conscious, Blackberry toting, panty-waist modern golf architects.

I say, let FLASK ARCHITECTURE reign again, like it once did. For God's Sake, just look at some of the great and adventurous stuff some of those old fashioned tipplers gave us all.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Attitudes about alcohol have changed this generation, but I suspect the problems we see with it were always present.  Livers haven't devolved in fifty years.  As to those romantic images - well we romantized the cowboy life via hollywood and it was no piece of cake either.  There seems to be the tendency to do that with "the good old days".

My father worked for a large company as a sales manager. One of his district managers often didn't get home, once even ending up in North Dakota without knowing how he got there.  They thought he was a drunk and covered for him.  Later, when it was discovered he had narcolepsy (sp) the disease where you randomly fall asleep, the company fired him as unable to do the job.  Now of course, ADA would cover him, but the company might have fired him if he was a drunk.

Paul has it right - like anything else, drink in moderation and most will be fine.  I simply can't tolerate more than two drinks in a night anyway, and I have never had a client or anyone else pressure me into having more in the name of socialization, architecture, or anything else.

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff and Yannick,

When I'm working I just don't. After a round of golf with clients or at a club that's different, I have "one" beer. That's always it.

I watched a consultant lose work by being too comfortable and drinking in front of a client. Why would I risk that? More importantly I drive everywhere, I have no choice but to be responsible.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I did have some trouble drinking with a client once.  I ordered a Miller light and the money man on the project was the local Budwieser distributor.......

[Yannick Pilon]

Tom,

No I would not turn a job down if a client would not have a beer with me.  But in the context of this discussion, I wonder if some clients would give the job to someone else if I insisted about not having a beer with them (unless of course I have perfectly good reason not to do so).   I am just reacting to Ian's comment about not having a beer "ever" with clients.

Philip,

I agree with you.  Personnally, I don't have any problems with alcohol.  I am more of a social drinker.  I never drink at home and I rarely have more than a few drinks in one night, even with friends....  So I usually go with the client and try to get him to order first so that I can follow in his footsteps....

Ian,

That's what I thought you meant but was not too sure.  I too will not drink while on the job (designing in the office or in the field) for the same reasons you mention.  But enjoying a cold one after a round or during a meal with clients, that's different...

Cheers again.  

It's time to go see the Canadiens kick some Thrashers butt while enjoying - you guessed it - a few Molson's!  

YP

[Jeff_Brauer]

YP,

My Dallas Stars kicked some Thrash Butt last night.  Fourth line scored three 1st period goals and chased the goalie, Kari Letemallin.  I think I got that Finnish name right......

[paul cowley]

....a little OT, but I think I have to hold the record for the most visits to Myrtle Beach while working without ever having visited a 'Gentlemen's Club'.....probably 60 visits to MB as opposed to 0 visits to any strip clubs.

Beat that T ;)mD, Jeffr ;Dy or any others who have had the opportunity to build a course in that cultural oasis on the coast.

[Robert_Walker]

Ian,

What is the Mickey that you are talking about in your first post? I know what a Mickey Finn is.

Thanks
RW

[Ian Andrew]

A 12 ounce bottle of alcohol

[Jeff_Brauer]

....a little OT, but I think I have to hold the record for the most visits to Myrtle Beach while working without ever having visited a 'Gentlemen's Club'.....probably 60 visits to MB as opposed to 0 visits to any strip clubs.

Beat that T ;)mD, Jeffr ;Dy or any others who have had the opportunity to build a course in that cultural oasis on the coast.

Paul,

I am not a huge fan of those places.  In fifty trips to MB, I was dragged in to one of those once by the contractor who picked me up at the airport.

There was a 60 something lady dancing (it was a Tuesday) and they told me she had won an age discrimination lawsuit against hiring only younger dancers.  She was allowed to work solo one night a week as part of the settlement.

I may also hold the record for casino avoidance while in Vegas.  My irrigation designer and I looked at each other after the last punch list trip, realized we hadn't been in the casino at our hotel in all our trips, and went in to play the quarter slots once to say we had gambled in Vegas.

Aaaahh, the glam life of a golf course architect.....dominos pizza/room service and TV at night (well, now, golf club atlas.....)

[Steve Okula]

I suggest that some form of mood altering substance is essential for the creative process in order to produce anything above ordinary.

Hemingway was mentioned earlier. An insufferable alcoholic, perhaps, but could anyone doubt his talent? Has anyone ever written a book worth reading who did not indulge in drugs, alcohol, or some form of insanity?

How about music? Name a musician of note who lived a sober life.

The same rule applies in politics, for that matter. Who would you rather won the war, brandy quaffing Churchill or the alcohol averse Hitler? (As an aside, there is a certain predictability in the outcome of European wars that depends on the national beverage of choice. Beer drinking nations will always defeat wine drinking nations, and spirits, whiskey or vodka, trump them both.)

Is there a single tee-totalling golf architect from the golden age whose work is held in high esteem?

Laissez les bontemps rouler, say I.

[paul cowley]

Cheers Steve....or Slainte even.....or what was that toast that was said earlier in French, Sante'? [I think its interesting that both of those salutes have Celtic roots].

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Here's a great little toast that is apropos for this particular website:

Here's to you and here's to me,
In hopes we may never disagree,
But if, by chance, we ever do,
Here's to me and the hell with you.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

This will sound corny but its true - After 29 years in the biz, I still get a "high" from designing golf courses. Don't need no stinking alcohol.

[Marty Bonnar]

Steve,

This will sound corny but its true - After 29 years in the biz, I still get a "high" from designing golf courses. Don't need no stinking alcohol.

Has anyone else noticed a main contributor to this thread possesses simply the best surname for this topic??? (wenn Sie Deutsches verstehen, selbstverständlich!!!)

Prost, Herr Brauer!
Hic!
FBD.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Martin,

Yes, I must be a dissapointment to my German, beer brewing ancestors, although I do have a beer now and again.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Of course I won't turn down a job if the potential client doesn't have a beer with me. All I'm saying is, if you like beer, I don't see anything wrong with having a pint or two with a client/potential client. People have enjoyed beer together in casual situations for hundreds of years. Why not in 2006?

There's no reason for me to pretend I don't enjoy a beer because I'm with a potential client. Of course I'm not going to become sloppy drunk. That would be stupid. And, there's a big difference between enjoying a pint or two with someone, and getting stupid, embarassing drunk.

In fact, ordering a Coke might come across as kinda phoney in certain situations. I think that was my original point.  

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