[Patrick_Mucci]

I would add that there are no railway sheds, nor are they any active roads, but that would just be piling on poor old Pat.....

If we go back before the reversal of play there, was no Road Hole as we know it.

Wooden shed, railroad shed, hotel, etc., etc..
You can pick the year of the target date and the features that existed at that time.

As I said, within the in-bounds markers, you can easily duplicate the hole, and, CBM did a fairly good job, using bunkers to replace structures.

Jason

Glad you liked the Old Course book, and that it stimulted you to start this interesting thread.  Other than a nice (but inferior to 17 TOC) green, 8 NGLA is not a great golf hole, much less one which comes close to resembling its template.

Jason, I don't want to pile on poor olde Rich, but, the 8th hole at NGLA is a world class "Bottle" hole.
The 7th at NGLA is a very good rendition of the 17th at TOC, absent all of the buildings.

Surely MacRayBanks have done better elsewhere.  If so, where and far more importantly how and why?

Rich,

The 7th at NGLA may be the best of CBM/SR/CB's attempt to replicate the 17th at TOC.

What's puzzling is that the topography necessary to replicate that hole is fairly flat, with no sharp or unusual features.

I think the 7th green and surrounds at NGLA rivals those of the 17th at TOC.

I think the difficult aspect of replicating the hole is the tee shot.

I haven't seen any tee shot on any "Road Hole" that obstructs the golfers view of the LZ.

This might be a great hole for Tom Doak to replicate at Bandon, especially if there was a dune that could be used to obstruct the golfers view of the LZ from the tee.

Tom Doak,

What do you think ?

[Jim Franklin]

Patrick -

Come play Five Farms when you get a chance. You cannot see the LZ through the Barn. Even though it is a dogleg left, I think you will enjoy the hole. The green is certainly not what #7 at NGLA is, but the rest of the hole matches up nicely.

Jim

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Franklin,

Mike Sweeney and I were just discussing BCCFF last week.

I like the course and hope to take you up on your offer next spring/summer

[Jim Franklin]

Patrick -

That sounds great, I am available . I need to get a piece of Sweeney too so make sure he comes along too. Good luck to the Domers next week!

Jim

[ForkaB]

Pat

Sorry about my confusing 7 and 8, but all the holes at NGLA look the same to me....

As for replicating the tee shot, No Problem!, as Borat might say.  Just grow a few of those native bayberry bushes up to 20-30 feet or so 50-100 yards off the tee (viz. the 6th at Royal Liverpool) and Voila! you have a shed equivalent.  Just add a wee path and a stone wall behind the green and you've got the whole hole nailed.

[Michael Robin]

I don't know if Tom would concur, but the 14th at Kidnappers has a lot of the Road Hole's dynamics around the green. The cool thing is that they have been applied to a hole that is so short and the fear
that is instilled in you at TOC when you have a mid to long iron in your hand is in place here when you are holding a wedge.  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

If you want a copy, then you build a Tour 18.  However, the important word is template.  That being the case, there are quite  a few excellent renditions.  Personally, my favorite is #3 at North Shore.  The new back tee at Piping Rock makes it an absolute brute of a hole--it is a good 480.  As stated earlier, #7 NGLA is awesome.

[Jim Nugent]

Is the missing element that you must hit your tee shot over a building?  You should be able to replicate that, especially at private or resort courses.  Just put up a building in the right place, at the proper angles off the tee, and make it out of bounds.  If you are worried about liability, don't let anyone in the building.  i.e. it's simply a structure for the course, similar to a pond.

Another possibility: find a natural feature (a hill or something like that) that takes the place of the building, and that you can route the hole around.  Or move enough dirt to create the feature.  

I've never played the hole or seen it in person, so I hope these aren't entirely off-the-wall thoughts.  
 

[ForkaB]

Jim

You do not hit a ball over the hotel--if you do, your  ball sleeps with the fishes, like Jason's.  You do have to hit it over a modern structure that was built to mimic the railway sheds that used to be at the corner of the dogleg.  As I said above, those sheds could easily be replicated as sheds or au naturel, as bushes.  The hole is very replicable.  Why Young Macdonald didn't do so is a puzlement to me.  But then again, whilst his Redan is a great improvement over the originnal, it is not a Redan, either, so maybe he was into interpretation more than replication.

Rich

[Jim Nugent]

Rich, so you are admitting you made every point I did?  You plagiarist!  

[ForkaB]

Jim

Plagiarism is either the last refuge of scoundrels, Huckaby's modus operandi or the highest form of flattery.  I'll take the latter since you stole my ideas from an earlier post.

Slainte

Rich

[Jim Nugent]

Rich, my sense of humor fizzles.  Again.  

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:  Absolutely, the 14th green at Cape Kidnappers was inspired by the Road hole green.  At 340 yards it is a completely different length for the hole, but the green is one of the most difficult targets from 100 yards that we've ever built.

Patrick:  I would say it is highly likely that we will build some version of the Road hole green at Old Macdonald -- probably on a very long par 4 or short par 5 -- possibly even for the 17th or 18th hole.  I've done it twice before, at Cape Kidnappers mentioned above, and on the 7th hole at The Legends (Heathland), which is nowhere near as severe.

But, does everyone really think the tee shot ought to be blind?  Wouldn't a long diagonal carry which you could see clearly do the same trick, and maybe make it a better hole?

Aside from the 7th at National, the other best "Road" green I've seen was a version Dev Emmet did at Huntington CC on Long Island.

[Jason Topp]

But, does everyone really think the tee shot ought to be blind?  Wouldn't a long diagonal carry which you could see clearly do the same trick, and maybe make it a better hole?

Tom:

I think the tee shot needs to be blind.  There are a million diagonal carries in golf and, absent the blindness, I think much of the uniqueness off the tee is gone.

One thing I have discovered over the last year is that I really like to hit the ball over stuff.  I decided it is one of my favorite aspects of Royal Melbourne, where you hit it over inside bunkers that, from the tees I played from, are not really in play.  I find such shots fun.  Many other holes among my favorites have the same shot, the Dell, the par three at Prestwick (#5?), the 13th at my course - Oak Ridge, the 8th at Pebble Beach, the Alps hole the 9th on the New Course and so on.  

Take the blindness away from the tee shot on the Road Hole and you take a significant amount of the fun away from the shot.  

[ForkaB]

Rich, my sense of humor fizzles.  Again.  

Jim

You are too subtle for this board.  Again.

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Without the element of the bllind tee shot, I think the hole would suffer as just being another half hearted attempt to duplicate the Road Hole.

I'm sure you're familiar with Pete Dye's 5th hole at Old Marsh, a version of Prestwick's Alps hole.  Without the blind intervening hill, it would be a mediocre hole and bear no resemblence to the original.  But, with that hill, it's easily recognzed, well known and a fitting tribute rather than a feeble attempt at duplication.

If you're going to do a version of a Road Hole, retaining the blind element on the tee shot will distinquish your hole from every other attempt at replication, possibly surpassing CBM's own efforts.

Don't let the great potential become a missed opportunity.

Your hole would be unique and distinct from all the others.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

We are going to have a couple of blind shots on this course, there is no doubt about that.  I just don't see why it is a critical element of the Road hole.  Why couldn't you have a tee shot like the sixth at Royal Melbourne (West), where you can see what you have to do to get it down the right side to get the best angle?

In other words, is the blind tee shot what makes the Road hole great?  I've never thought so.

[Jason Topp]

Patrick:

We are going to have a couple of blind shots on this course, there is no doubt about that.  I just don't see why it is a critical element of the Road hole.  Why couldn't you have a tee shot like the sixth at Royal Melbourne (West), where you can see what you have to do to get it down the right side to get the best angle?

In other words, is the blind tee shot what makes the Road hole great?  I've never thought so.

Because I cannot remember the view from the 6th tee as being that unique other than knowing it was pretty darn close to my max carry to get over it on an agressive line.  By contrast, hitting it over the U on "Golf Course Hotel", when you know it is the right play, but it would be so much easier to bail out left, is extremely memorable and thrilling.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, I agree that playing as far as you dare down the right side is a very important feature of the hole.  I don't know that it has to be an out of bounds hazard, but it needs to be a severe penalty on that side, so you are really taking a risk to take the shortest line and get the best angle.

An interesting thought ... the fact that we call it the Road hole hints strongly that the key aspect of the hole is the second shot to the green, with the road behind.  But back in Darwin's day they often called the hole "the Stationmaster's Garden," indicating that the tee shot was the primary feature -- I guess back then they weren't getting home in two so the Road was not such a big deal.

Jason:  I can absolutely guarantee you I'm NOT going to build some sheds to hit over on our version of the Road hole in Oregon.  That's a unique feature to St. Andrews that existed for a valid reason, but to imitate it in Bandon would be the height of stupidity, in my humble (but in this case, important) opinion.  That's a replica course; we're not doing replicas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

We are going to have a couple of blind shots on this course, there is no doubt about that.  

I just don't see why it is a critical element of the Road hole.

Why couldn't you have a tee shot like the sixth at Royal Melbourne (West), where you can see what you have to do to get it down the right side to get the best angle?

In other words, is the blind tee shot what makes the Road hole great?  I've never thought so.

Tom Doak,

Ask yourself this question.

Doesn't everybody salivate in anticipation of reaching the 17th tee while they're playing TOC ?

Isn't it that element, the blind tee shot, that intriques so many golfers ?  First timers ?  And, repeat players ?

I don't think it's the blindness that elevates the hole to deity status, but, it's certainly a critical element if one was intent on constructing an outstanding duplicate of the hole.

Without the blindness, it's no longer unique.

Look at all of the other attempts at duplicating the Road Hole.
While some are good, like # 7 at NGLA, none come close to duplicating the feeling of the road hole at the tee.

As terrific as the green and surrounds are at # 7 at NGLA, you don't really feel that you played THE Road Hole when you're walking back to the 8th tee.

I have no dog in this fight, but, I think you have a unique opportunity, and that opportunity is to create a true replica of the Road Hole where all others have failed ...... for decades, if not centuries.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:  I can absolutely guarantee you I'm NOT going to build some sheds to hit over on our version of the Road hole in Oregon.  That's a unique feature to St. Andrews that existed for a valid reason, but to imitate it in Bandon would be the height of stupidity, in my humble (but in this case, important) opinion.  That's a replica course; we're not doing replicas.

Understood, and I would not expect you to.  Nonetheless, in my view, blindness is critical to the thrill of the hole.  I do not think sheds are a necessary to accomplish the thrill.  Gorse might even do it.  

I really did not think about your course when creating this thread.  I guess the question for you is what Macdonald would do.  

[Bill_McBride]

This might be a great hole for Tom Doak to replicate at Bandon, especially if there was a dune that could be used to obstruct the golfers view of the LZ from the tee.

Actually, Tom Doak has already done that very effectively, with I think the 13th hole at Apache Stronghold where there is a large dune in the corner than can be carried to significantly shorten the hole.  Nothing else resembles the Road Hole but that dune is a great start!

I think this photo from Ran's profile is a side view of the 13th with the dune on the right side.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think we will find very few really good road hole replacas. I have heard of two thus far and the one at National is significantly different.

[Bill_McBride]

Panhandle, that's #10 asbestos I can tell.

Yeah you're right.  I'd love to see a photo of #13, the dune is pretty large over there and it's right in the corner of the dogleg.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

You're unlikely to find a good picture of #13 at Apache Stronghold, because there is this big dune inside the corner of the dogleg which blocks your view of the rest of the hole.  

Patrick:

"Without the blindness, it's no longer unique."  

Nor would either version be unique if we copied the hole in St. Andrews exactly.    Which is why we won't.

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