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Tim Copeland

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2006, 09:09:37 PM »
TPC-Eagle Trace, which hosted the Honda Classic for a number of years in South Florida was brutally penal. Few options anywhere, just the avoidance of pain. Water and OB everywhere. Under firm and windy conditions some holes were all but unplayable. It was the second TPC course, an attempt to emulate TPC Sawgrass but without any of the charm. Kenny Knox won the tournament one year shooting an 81 in the third round.


McCumber design....right??

Wadsworth built it
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Tim Gavrich

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2006, 09:15:04 PM »
David--

I believe Eagle Trace is an Arthur Hills course.  TPC Heron Bay is the McCumber-designed former Honda site.
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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2006, 09:31:59 PM »
In metro-NY, Metedeconk Nat'l has to be the poster child of penal.  Anything off the fairway is a simple choice of penalties.  And the fairways are never more than 35yds wide and mostly 28-30 yards.  The course has fairway bunkers that negate a recovery shot, fescue everywhere, pine forest bordering fairways, lakes, streams, and 5 inch primary rough.  In addition, the greens are generally small with pretty good slope usually maintained at 10-12 stip speed.  A couple of greens are compartmentalized so that being on the wrong part of the green leaves a 15 to 20 foot comeback putt at best.  If there are options, the options are which club to layup with or which miss will be least penal.

Jason Topp

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2006, 11:57:00 PM »
Jason:

Most ironically the course generally considered to be the prototype of strategic architecture is TOC while the course that may've been the true prototype of penal architecture was TOC when it had 40 yard wide playing corridors with penalty (gorse) on either side all the way along and players playing those same corridors both ways against each other before the course was widened.

If this doesn't bespeak the nuancy gray areas of the philosophies of golf course architecture, then what does?  ;)


Tom:

Vey true.  I never thought about the course's history in that light.

One of the things I was interested in in starting this topic is how people would define penal.  Many do in terms of penalty strokes, but most architects that have written about the subject reject such a definition and instead focus on the definition in my first post - does the hole dictate it be played in a particular way or does it not?

Jason Topp

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2006, 11:57:47 PM »
Jason,

If you want to contrast penal and strategic at the very top in an every day set-up then read Ran's course review of Royal County Down and Royal Portrush. A pair of links courses in fairly close proximity to each other.

Bill - I would definitely like to do that "research" some day.

Jason Topp

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2006, 12:08:53 AM »
I'd find it hard to believe that there do exist golf courses that can be classified as "purely penal," anyway.  And, for that matter, vice versa.  Now I've never seen or played it, but isn't the 17th at Sand Hills (par three, yes?) a genuinely penal hole?

But then again, can't we draw strategy out of any penal hole?  I mean, if the pin on 17 at TPC Sawgrass is on the right side, don't we still have the option (albeit far more constricted) of hitting at the middle of the green, rather than going for the hole?

Furthermore, isn't the essence of a great strategic golf hole the fact that the bold route is fraught with peril while the conservative route is at least decently less-guarded?


Tim:

I agree that there is a degree of strategy on even the most penal holes.  That is why I described it as a continuum and identifed what I believe are the extremes on each end of the scale.

I also pretty much agree that the 17th at Sand Hills is pretty much a penal hole.  One difference, from an island hole, however, is that going for the pin can be a more reasonable alternative if the penalty is a bunker shot rather than water.  

I'm not sure about your last point.  I agree that a strategic hole generally offers a perilous bold route and a conservative route with less peril.  The great ones offer many different possible options.  There is a great difference between that approach on one hand, and a hole that simply dictates how it should be played.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 12:13:50 AM by Jason Topp »

Matt_Cohn

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2006, 01:53:25 AM »
How can a hole be strategic without any penal elements?

Aren't the penal elements what make it strategic?

For good players, is there any more *strategic* 132 yard par-3 than #17 at Sawgrass?

And, would an 18 handicapper really describe #14 at TOC as "the opposite of penal"?


Jim Nugent

Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2006, 04:28:55 AM »
Matt, you make a good general point about penal elements.  I don't see any strategy in TPC 17 though.  Can you outline it for me?  

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2006, 07:42:30 AM »
Koolau - end of discussion.

One inch into the deep rough anywhere on this course and the ball is lost.  Slope 155 max-ed out but estimated at 162.

JC

T_MacWood

Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2006, 07:50:56 AM »
Oakland Hills

TEPaul

Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2006, 08:09:59 AM »
"Many do in terms of penalty strokes, but most architects that have written about the subject reject such a definition and instead focus on the definition in my first post - does the hole dictate it be played in a particular way or does it not?"

Jason:

In a general sense, and today, if a golf course is one that gives the player constant situations of visually apparent shot dictation with no real ability for the player to make some farily distinct alternate or optional choice on his own of an differing way to play the hole, and the course penalizes directly any shot that does not conform to that visually apparent one dimensional shot dictation then you pretty much have a real form of penal golf architecture.

The essence of the strategic school of design is architectural arrangements where any golfer very much feels he can make HIS OWN shot choices and pick his very own ways to go. The latter is the essence of the "indirect tax" theory on which the strategic school of golf is based.

I don't see why everyone on here needs to argue about strict definitions before a discussion on this subject can be entered into.

The latter will definitely do. It has been available for years. It seems to me this website seems to enjoy arguing about definitions sometimes more than they do about the essence of some subject. Even if they don't enjoy constantly arguing over strict definitions, it certainly is what they do too often. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand the differences and distinctions between penal and strategic golf or architecture. ;)

Pete Lavallee

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2006, 09:25:37 AM »
The reason I nominated Torrey South for the poster child of penal architecture is two fold:

Save for the bunker fronting the shortest hole, the par 3 8th and the pond in front of the 18th there is nothing in the path from the golfer on the tee to the hole; unless the hole is cut on the extreme edge of certain greens.

There is no hole where you would choose to be anywhere but the exact center of the fairway.

This seems to me to be the definition of a penal course; only shots that stray from the center line are punished. Only shots that stay on the center line are rewarded.

Granted these shots are punished without the use of penalty strokes (unless you are wayward enough to find a canyon or the lone water feature on 18), but believe me the strokes do pile up if you waver from the central corridor.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

BCrosby

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2006, 10:00:19 AM »
Pete -

I don't think a course that gives you the choice of hitting it off center without a direct penalty is a penal course.

If the optimal choice at Torrey South is almost always to hit it down the middle - i.e. into the widest part of the fairway - that is not a sign that the course is penal.

That is a sign that the course is dull.

Bob
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 10:10:51 AM by BCrosby »

Andy Scanlon

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2006, 10:20:13 AM »
PGA West Stadium course is the first to spring to my mind as well.
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2006, 10:33:59 AM »
Pete - put me down with Bob on this.  Your description to me says "dull" or "anti-strategic" but not really "penal."  As made obvious by the two words, to me "penal" means "penalties" are assessed.  And there have to be MANY courses where penalties are more obviously assessed than Torrey Pines.

But again, it is just two ways of interpreting the same word.  I can see your point, for sure.

TH

PThomas

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Re:The Best Example of a Penal Golf Course
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2006, 01:18:13 PM »
How penal is the Ocean Course at Kiawah, even without the 8000 yard tees?  

The Ocean course is still the hardest course I've ever played, I think!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

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