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M. Shea Sweeney

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Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2006, 12:07:31 PM »
The reason I brought up this thread was to hear some thoughts after a few years since the intial post.

Rob,

I always thought that CVC had the best putting surfaces in Garden City, and remember a few years back alot of the regulars from the golf club were coming over to CVC to play because they were having trouble over there. The myth was always that the golf club had the 'fastest' greens.

If I recall Garden City Country Club has the highest course rating out of the three?

I digress, I still seem to think that Garden city does resist scoring well, even to this day.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2006, 12:08:49 PM by M. Shea Sweeney »

Gib_Papazian

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2006, 12:15:42 PM »
Sadly, everyone has missed the key point here:

The reason GC is hard to score on is that most of the holes contain some little twist or pitfall on APPROACH SHOTS to ensnare a loose swing or one tick of greed.

You may get it going - but only for a while. Inevitably, all but top flight gunners make a little mistake here or there - and then another in an attempt to get that lost shot back.

Mortals are not accustomed to being lowered down a well (see left side of green #11) with a sand wedge in hand where all you can see is sky and Mucci peering over the edge with an evil grin on his face.


 


Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2006, 01:39:04 PM »
It is true that there is some trickienessin the greens with approach shots.  However, GCCC is much more demanding in this area.  It is the hidden gem not on the GCA charts.  The greens complexes are Travis at his very best.  Those who go to play GCGC in the future should drive the 1/2 mile down Stewart Ave and check the place out.  #2, #10, and #16 are front to back slope artistry.  Cherry Valley has the best par 3 #13 in Garden City.  And #8 has the ultimate serpantine bunker.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2006, 01:42:21 PM »
Robert,

Please enunciate what GCCC stands for.

Thanks

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2006, 02:11:38 PM »
i have never played GCGC, but i believe that there is one element that can make scoring in relation to par much more difficult on a short course verses a course that is much longer.  Difficult par 3's, usually through length, but i guess there can also be other ways to make a par 3 difficult.  as i said i have never played the course and would be interested in hearing how the par 3's play.

Glenn Spencer

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2006, 02:32:51 PM »
I have played them both and I thought the Country Club was a walk in the park compared to the Golf Club. I played really well to shoot my score at the Golf Club and it was not all that good. The Country Club did not seem at all intimidating, to me, anyway. I am really pretty shocked to see it getting all of this respect.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2006, 02:34:36 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Glenn Spencer

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2006, 02:38:31 PM »
Sadly, everyone has missed the key point here:

The reason GC is hard to score on is that most of the holes contain some little twist or pitfall on APPROACH SHOTS to ensnare a loose swing or one tick of greed.

You may get it going - but only for a while. Inevitably, all but top flight gunners make a little mistake here or there - and then another in an attempt to get that lost shot back.

Mortals are not accustomed to being lowered down a well (see left side of green #11) with a sand wedge in hand where all you can see is sky and Mucci peering over the edge with an evil grin on his face.


 



I think that you are on to something. I felt like it was a lot more about avoidance than it was about just going crazy and making a bunch of birdies. I guess it is out there 'on paper', but once you play it, there is really nothing easy about it. You don't walk off feeling like less of a man, like some courses, it is just that your score is not as low as you think it could have been- all the time type places. I think that is where the true genius lies, no?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2006, 02:40:47 PM »
You guys are talking about the 5 year ago GCGC, right? After all remember, Mucci shot 69 there this summer so how tough could it be.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2006, 02:54:54 PM »
GCCC= Garden City Country Club                                     Glen,  You must be a rather poor driver of the ball, because the fairways at GCGC are 50yds wide with 10 yards and then fescue.  GCCC does not have very many fairway fescue areas, but has 28-32 yd fairways with 3-4 inch rough.  The greens have so much more humps, bumps, and slope than GCGC.  It is short on pot bunkers, but the greens are very well protected.  A testiment to GCCC is that during the past 10 pro-members, the lowest score is one 67 (-3), and mostly 69's and 70's.  This tournament always has the best players in the MetPGA. From way forward, maybe it does not challenge the driving as well as from the back tees, but I find this to be a very tough driving course.  Enough said on the approach shots.

Gib_Papazian

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2006, 03:04:53 PM »
Jes II,

Mucci - even at his age and still recovering from a terrifying illness - could kick the ass of all but a handful on this board.


Glenn Spencer

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2006, 03:19:20 PM »
GCCC= Garden City Country Club                                     Glen,  You must be a rather poor driver of the ball, because the fairways at GCGC are 50yds wide with 10 yards and then fescue.  GCCC does not have very many fairway fescue areas, but has 28-32 yd fairways with 3-4 inch rough.  The greens have so much more humps, bumps, and slope than GCGC.  It is short on pot bunkers, but the greens are very well protected.  A testiment to GCCC is that during the past 10 pro-members, the lowest score is one 67 (-3), and mostly 69's and 70's.  This tournament always has the best players in the MetPGA. From way forward, maybe it does not challenge the driving as well as from the back tees, but I find this to be a very tough driving course.  Enough said on the approach shots.

Robert,

Actually, driving the golf ball is one of, if not my strongest suit. My iron-play can be lacking and that is why I found the Golf Club to be much harder than the Country Club. The course may just suit me or something. It has been a few years and I could be wrong, but I didn't find it that hard. I know the area and the pros and the 67 being low is VERY surprising to me, but what do I know, I am not in that class with Melke and them. You have probably saved me a lot of money, because if someone bet me that in 10-20 tries at GCCC that I couldn't shoot 67, I would have taken the bet. So, thank you for that, no doubt I would have lost that, based on the evidence that you have provided.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2006, 03:20:12 PM »
Gib, I am going to take a little editorial freedom with you post. Please don't put me in the lynching line forming on GCA lately.


Jes II,

Jaws [/color]Mucci - even at his quite advanced[/color]age, which is evidenced by his delirium, [/color]and still recovering from a terrifying illness - could kick the ass of all but a handful on this board so long as they bend over for him[/color].



Thanks Gib,

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2006, 03:28:07 PM »
Glenn,  You need to play them both next summer.  It is the fescue that usually kills most GCGC guests.  I used to hear quite a few stories from my junior pupils (who caddied there) about trying to find balls all day long.  GCGC is not an easy 2nd shot course, but not as demanding as GCCC which can be among the toughest around when the pins are tucked.   GCCC has quite a few awesome pin positions.  

Gib_Papazian

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2006, 04:56:16 PM »
Jes II,

Evidently, you are operating under the hallucination you possess the chops to act as my personal editor.

I suggest your 15 minutes of fame can easily be obtained by entering any one of your 2429 irrelevant and sophomoric posts to the following organization:

http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/

You are a sure winner:

« Last Edit: November 08, 2006, 04:56:44 PM by Gib Papazian »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2006, 06:56:03 PM »
JES II,

About three weeks after my -4, 69, I was playing with my surgeon and some friends, and after bogeying the easy par 5 7th, stood -6 to par on the 12th tee, having birdied 7 out of the first 11 holes, so clearly, the golf course is getting easier by the week.

In reflecting about what Gib and others have said, I think it's a combination of a number of factors.

The fairways are generous, but, the fescue rough is very  difficult, and once a player enters that domain, they may not recover with less than a double bogie.

In addition, once the golfer finds the bottom of one of the many deep pit bunkers, they get very gunshy about going near them again, and, extraction from them is very difficult.

The cant of virtually every putting surface presents a more subtle obstacle to scoring.  It's hard to get close to the hole and it's hard to get beneath the hole with greens that are sloped, on the approach and on recovery

And, with the sloped green, combining break with speed is a challenge when putting.

When you add the lack of visual guides, like on # 7 tee, it creates great uncertainty in the golfers mind, which usually leads to less than desired shots.

With a par of 37 on the front nine, many shoot 3 over and look at the score card and realize they've shot 40, and now fear that they won't break 80.  They press, and the rest, along with their score is history.

Some of the fairways are canted, which can result in hooked or sliced shots

When you add the wind to the mix, the conspiracy against scoring becomes pronounced.

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2006, 07:13:48 PM »
Pat-

Why is the golf course playing easier than previous years?


Patrick_Mucci

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2006, 07:33:34 PM »
Pat-

Why is the golf course playing easier than previous years?


I'd say that it's a combination of several factors.

# 1     Mother Nature
# 2     A long slide from the golf course conditions as they
          existed on the day Bobby Ranum left.

That trend appears to have been reversed.
If Mother Nature co-operates, optimal playing conditions should return in the not too distant future.

However, the golf course continues to resist scoring rather well and is no pushover by any means.

For courses like GCGC and NGLA, playing conditions, especially F&F, have a dramatic affect on the golf course's resistance to scoring.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2006, 09:00:41 AM »
Jes II,

Evidently, you are operating under the hallucination you possess the chops to act as my personal editor.

I suggest your 15 minutes of fame can easily be obtained by entering any one of your 2429 irrelevant and sophomoric posts to the following organization:

http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/

You are a sure winner:



Gib,

Your eloquence is impressive. Your defense of Mucci humorous. Your need to make a personal attack a bit befuddling. Such is life in the Dodge City Tom Paul warned about.

Considering my SAT verbal score of 400 highlighted the peak of my writing proficiency, I am quite content to not even connect to the link you posted, but thank you, I am sure it would have been rewarding.


Quoted from Pat Mucci:
Quote
When you add the wind to the mix, the conspiracy against scoring becomes pronounced.

I love this line.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2007, 02:22:55 PM »
bump
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2007, 02:37:47 PM »
For me, GCGC resists scoring due to the fact that nearly every year I show up to play in the Travis, the weather for the qualifying round is...Windy & raining with temps in the 50's. :P  It's uncanny how lousy the weather can be in mid May.

Outside of mother nature, one of the things I find difficult about Garden City is the basic seamless transition of fairway into green on many of the holes.  It isn't a feature that we face that often here in the US. This characteristic combined with the awkward slope of many greens makes it difficult to judge your approach shots and get the ball in the correct area of the green for an easier putt.  Another aspect to the course that affects the better golfers that I've seen, is that on the whole, Garden City doesn't first appear that difficult.  There is nothing flashy and nothing overly penal(except a few bunkers)that jump out at you. On a calm day you can score quite well, but with just a bit of breeze, the subtlety of the course slowly wears on you.  I don't know how many holes I've walked off or rounds that I've finished at Garden City where I didn't look back and wonder how I scored so poorly.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 02:38:57 PM by JSlonis »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:How does Garden City resist scoring so well ?
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2007, 06:55:14 PM »
One errant swing that propels the ball into deep rough has a dual effect.  It usually produces a high score on the hole, and, it makes the golfer more defensive.  It effectively shrinks the fairways.

The ability to lose a ball remains high, due to the rough and the proximity of the property line on a number of holes, such as 2 & 3 or 16 and 17.

The difficulty in getting the ball between 4 and 8 O'clock is another contributing factor.  Once outside of those perameters, making putts is difficult from almost any length.

Finding the bottom of a deep bunker can also produce a high score on any given hole, and contribute further to the golfer becoming defensive.

I think the combination of all of these factors, plus the breeze is what makes scoring so difficult.

As the course gets back to F&F, and the rough is returned to its difficult level, I believe that scoring will become more difficult for all level of players, especially with a breeze thrown in.

JES II,

I did it again a month later, clear evidence that the course is at least 12 shots easier than it was a decade ago.

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