Sea Island Golf Club

« **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2004, 11:15:11 AM »

Sarge,

Very well put. As Carlye has stated most of the routing has been preserved and the course improved through removal of trees.

Is Sea Island a example of a good restoration? Looking at Carlyle's website it looks very impressive.

Brian.

« **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2004, 12:37:11 PM »

Maybe I am missing something here...

Can anyone provide any evidence (photos, descriptionary prose, etc.) that the new Seaside course post redesign posesses a routing closer to the original design, plays more like the original design, contains strategy more in keeping with the original design or shows more resemblance to the original design than the nine hole Seaside course that existed prior to the work?

I am not in any way to argue Carlyle's claim of restoration, but before we start to call Seaside a "good restoration" we might want to build a case for calling it a restoration in the first place.

It seems there are issues that need to be addressed regarding work done on the course from the 1950's (any idea what changes occurred then?) on through to the current version of the course.

Keith.

« **Reply #27 on:** January 21, 2004, 02:01:48 PM »

Sarge
I try to avoid stereotyping individuals.

If a purist is someone who has studied golf architecture and the history of golf architecture, and has attempted to identify the most significant works from a historical perspective (not every work of all golden age architects as in your over simplified example), and is disapointed when those significant works are plowed up....then yes I am a purist.

Isn't it difficult to know if someone is 'infected' with something like 'purism'....if you are unaware of a course's history. Perhaps after looking into it you might conclude the person is 'blessed' with 'purism.'

Keith
That is a good question. There were a good number of courses that were worked on right after WWII...sometimes just a matter of re-establishing the course after years of neglect; sometimes more significant changes.

I also believe the longtime pro/super at Sea Island (I think his name was Hugh Moore) was a little bit of a tinkerer.

« **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2004, 02:19:54 PM »

MR. MAC WOOD:

LET ME REPLY

I try to avoid stereotyping individuals.

THAT'S GOOD. I'LL ASSUME YOUR REFERENCE TO ME AS AN IMPURIST WAS AN ANOMALY.

If a purist is someone who has studied golf architecture and the history of golf architecture, and has attempted to identify the most significant works from a historical perspective (not every work of all golden age architects as in your over simplified example), and is disapointed when those significant works are plowed up....then yes I am a purist.

THAT'S YOUR DEFINITION, NOT MINE.

Isn't it difficult to know if someone is 'infected' with something like 'purism'....if you are unaware of a course's history. Perhaps after looking into it you might conclude the person is 'blessed' with 'purism.

HOW DO YOU KNOW I DON'T KNOW SOMETHING OF THE HISTORY OF SEA ISLAND? I DO KNOW THAT YOU NEVER SAW TRAVIS' WORK, OR ALLISON'S WORK, AND FROM THE TENOR OF YOUR POSTS, I GATHER YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN FAZIO'S WORK AT SEA ISLAND.

BLESS YOU MY SON.

« **Reply #29 on:** January 21, 2004, 02:45:44 PM »

Whether the work at Sea Island is characterized as a redesign or restoration is irrelevant. It is, unequivocally, a success.

C

« **Reply #30 on:** January 21, 2004, 04:28:41 PM »

Carlye,

Good answer...

You are welcome in Norway anytime if you want to come on site....

Tom,

Sometimes you are harsh on restorations or redesigns. What you have said back in the days when Colt was doing a redesign of Sunningdale?

Brian

« **Reply #31 on:** January 21, 2004, 04:34:41 PM »

Sarge
Not an anomoly...just giving back a wee a bit your own medicine. By the way it is Alison....not Allison.

Brian
You are correct...I try to evaluate each situation. I love the MacKenzie/Egan changes to PBGL....Travis's changes to GCGC...Flynn's changes at Shinnecock....Wilson's changes at Moraine. An example of why stereotyping is an unfortunate practice.

« **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2004, 12:22:12 AM »

Quote from: Tom MacWood on January 21, 2004, 02:01:48 PM

I also believe the longtime pro/super at Sea Island (I think his name was Hugh Moore) was a little bit of a tinkerer.

Hugh Moore is still there, several days a week. His father was the pro and, I think, construction supervisor.

If you want to hear about how it was there, talk to Hugh.

« **Reply #33 on:** January 22, 2004, 01:30:32 PM »

Are you sure Hugh Moore was the pro at SI?

My understanding is that he was actively involved with a construction company that specialized in golf work. He did a lot of work in the SE in the 50's and 60's, including work at Athens CC about 1960. He spent about a week there, riding a bulldozer around, changing features on an ad hoc basis, without drawings, notes or direction from the club. He was given a free hand.

Virtually all of Moore's changes we can identify today were regrettable. I wonder how much he had to do with the changes to the SI courses in the 50's and 60's?

Bob

« **Reply #34 on:** January 22, 2004, 02:17:56 PM »

Bob,
There are some pictures of the elder Hugh at Sea Island. Here is one from their website.

Hugh Moore, Sea Island's first golf pro, with Kirkwood, Abreu, and Hagen

Hugh's son, Hugh, now about 80 years old, still comes to the courses. I have spoken with him many times. He says his father "built" the course. I think his father supervised construction.
Hugh loves to talk golf, and loves links golf. He led many trips to Scotland. We would often talk about Machrihanish, one course to which he has not gone.
He also loves to talk about the Sea Island golf courses through the years.

Neil

« **Reply #35 on:** January 22, 2004, 03:10:11 PM »

Neil -

Interesting. Moore is the only club pro I've heard of who headed up his own construction business on the side.

The former head of golf operations at Athens remembers him as a gruff, cigar-chomping, arrogant guy. The Athens CC apparently paid him a flat fee, he came and did what he thought needed doing, and left one evening without saying a word to anyone. Except to tell the super to put sand in the holes he dug for new bunkers.

Bob

« **Reply #36 on:** January 23, 2004, 10:58:31 PM »

Bob
I stumbled across an article on Sea Island pre-RTJ and it appears the scalloped bunkers on #5 (#14 of intitial 18) were Alison's. The most significant change (after this article in 1948) was on the Plantation nine--two new holes at the furthest point out replaced two holes sandwiched between the Oceanside and Plantation.

According to the article Travis's Plantation nine was under construction when the Old Man died. Alison was hired to complete that nine and develop a new nine. According to the Cloister's website "Grantland Rice included the course with Pebble Beach, Winged Foot, Pinehurst and National in a filmed portrait of the best golf courses in America." Pretty high company...its unfortunate they didn't try to preserve their masterpiece.

« **Reply #37 on:** January 24, 2004, 12:02:03 AM »

Seaside #5, c1997.
It breaks my heart to see it gone.

« **Reply #38 on:** January 24, 2004, 12:05:32 AM »

Tom,
I would love to know more about that article re: Seaside.
Can you please email me ?

Neil

ps See my note above regarding the 2 new holes on Plantation to replace the two holes from Plantation assigned to the new (c1971) Marshside.

« **Reply #39 on:** January 24, 2004, 09:49:26 AM »

Neil
I'll send you an e-mail. Your explanation now makes sense to me--I had difficulty picturing the other two nines. Thanks for the picture of the lost 5th.

« **Reply #40 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:05:50 PM »

nregan/Tom MacW -

Thanks for posting the picture of the old Seaside 5th. The picture doesn't do justice to the height of the old bunker lips and the push-up green. I recall not being able to see the putting surface from inside any of the bunkers. Fazio built a very different hole. The old tilted scallop bunkers are gone. I did not know they were original Alison features.

My favorite hole on Seaside was no. 7, a long par 4. Drive across a creek angling along the left side of the fairway. Strategic green bunkering maximized approaches from the left, i.e., from the creekside of the fairway. Fazio's hole has neutered those wonderfully painful choices.

I will be in SI in about three weeks. I will play Seaside twice. I will report to the group afterwards. But after a quick tour with some friends last year, for Fazio or SI or anyone else to call Fazio's work at Seaside a "restoration" is to empty the term of all meaning.

Bob

« **Reply #41 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:16:34 PM »

...BCrosby....if you have the time and inclination [and i am here ]and would like to play the Love course ,lets get together......

« **Reply #42 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:29:39 PM »

Paul - I would love to get together. PM me through GCA and we can swap phone numbers. Bob

« **Reply #43 on:** January 25, 2004, 08:45:05 AM »

I have played Sea Island many times both prior and post RENOVATION.
As has been well documented here, the old Seaside 9 was combined with the old Marshside 9 to become the RENOVATED (not restored) Seaside 18.

The overall 18 is definitely an improvement but there are several examples where, in my opinion, the renovated holes are not as good as the old.

Generally, the work on the old Marshside is a vast improvement. That said, I miss the short par 5 second and the long par 4 ninth (tiny elevated green by the parking lot) which I believe was the original ninth on Seaside. The fourth is a very good hole.

On the old Seaside 9, the golf course is more visually stunning than the old but not always better. Thankfully the short third, the cape 7th, and the great par 4 fourth are largely as they were. The old par 4 fifth was much better than the new. The rest of the holes now could be said to be improvements.

All in all, a better golf course in my opinion.

« **Reply #44 on:** January 25, 2004, 10:14:05 AM »

David
Interesting report. Why is the new course better?

Better than the Seaside-9 + Marshside-9 or better than the original 18?

« **Reply #45 on:** January 25, 2004, 01:30:12 PM »

Quote from: David_Graves on January 25, 2004, 08:45:05 AM

I have played Sea Island many times both prior and post RENOVATION.
As has been well documented here, the old Seaside 9 was combined with the old Marshside 9 to become the RENOVATED (not restored) Seaside 18.

Reading this thread is live eavesdropping on a bunch of elderly ladies playing canasta.

Points of clarification:
The courses have been RENOVATED.
The wildlife habitat has been RESTORED.
The architectural intent of Colt/Alison's design has been RESURRECTED.
If I have to endure any more whining, I'll have to be RESUSCITATED.

I sincerely admire H.S. Colt. and Charles Alison. They were pioneers and innovators. I'm certain they were very proud of their design on St. Simons Island, and deservedly so. But I'm also as fervently confident that, if they were alive today, they would gladly tee it up at the renovated Seaside course and thoroughly enjoy their afternoon.

I understand your points about the modifications. Last spring, I was making the same objections to a recently renovated course in California. I took exception to the shape of the bunkering on one hole. My quibbling even escalated into me sending a sketch to the architect of what the bunker "should" have looked like.

Now I realize how absurd I was. Why was I bitching about ONE set of bunkers on ONE hole? Because everything else was so damn nice there wasn't anything else to complain about! Because it was still one of the most enjoyable courses I'd ever played! Because the changes IMPROVED the golf!

Change and improvement are not necessarily harmonious, but neither are they mutually exclusive. But in this case, Sea Island G.C. has benefitted from the modifications.

« **Reply #46 on:** January 25, 2004, 01:46:49 PM »

Tom -

I think what David is trying to say is that the old Joe Lee Marshside 9 was not very good and Fazio's changes, overall, are an improvement there. I agree.

I don't think the Fazio changes to the old Seaside 9 were an improvement, however. As David notes - and this is typical Fazio - the those 9 holes are now much prettier/better framed/photogenic, take your pick. But qua golf course, the od Seaside 9 is worse for the wear (and the bucks). On balance that 9 is less strategic with fewer interesting shot options. imho.

I don't have a good feel for what Rees did to the old Retreat 9 and the old Plantation 9, but, again, I will be there in a couple of weeks and will report back afterwards.

The terminology of the SI courses is confusing.

Now there are two 18's,Seaside and Plantation. The current Seaside 18 is a combination of the old Seaside 9 and the old Marshside 9. (There is no longer a Marshside designation.)

The current Plantation 18 is a combination of the old Plantation 9 and the old Retreat 9.

To further confuse matters, the old St. Simons Club down the road (also owned by the Sea Island Company) is now called the Retreat Course.

Sort of like learning Hungarian, you'll probably never get the course names right unless you grew up with them.

Bob

« **Reply #47 on:** January 25, 2004, 01:59:23 PM »

Carlyle -

What specific holes on the old Seaside 9 did Fazio resurrect and improve? Other than aesthetically? What classic shot values did Fazio recover there?

Bob

« **Reply #48 on:** January 25, 2004, 02:08:12 PM »

Quote from: BCrosby on January 25, 2004, 01:59:23 PM

What specific holes on the old Seaside 9 did Fazio resurrect and improve? Other than aesthetically? What classic shot values did Fazio recover there?

EVERY hole on the Seaside 9 was improved strategically because he reintroduced WIND!

C

« **Reply #49 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:03:59 PM »

....without getting into the before and after debate [although the old seaside to this day ranks as my favorate 9 hole course]......wind was always a major factor on both the old seaside and marshside nines,not much different than today.

views and view corridors have improved..........

News:

Brian Phillips

Keith Williams

T_MacWood

John_Cullum

Carlyle Rood

Brian Phillips

T_MacWood

Neil Regan

BCrosby

Neil Regan

BCrosby

T_MacWood

Neil Regan

Neil Regan

T_MacWood

BCrosby

paul cowley

BCrosby

David_Graves

T_MacWood

Carlyle Rood

BCrosby

BCrosby

Carlyle Rood

paul cowley