[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mayday, I understand exactly what you are saying!

golfnooch, If you could, it is obvious there is omehting missing from your initial starting post--could you repost it please so that some of us can see your "eye*" of the bunker work at Merion--Thanks

*Your photographic Eye.

Merion is without doubt a very special place, Three years ago it was even more special. Given the decorum of what has taken place thereover the years as well as your newness to Golf Club Atlas, you have to understand that this topic is a very sensitive one. It has been known to start 6500 viewed posts, and newspaper articles. Why even Porsche Dealers feel they have a word in it!

I still love Merion in the same way a father loves a son who commited vandelism and got thrown into the hoosgau for it. You stilllove them, but your just so disappointed with the decisions that alter their moral fabric.

[wsmorrison]

should entitle this thread "Merion East-A Walk Through Past, Present, and Future."

[SPDB]

Golfnooch - What evidence did you see of expanding fairway lines? Specifically I would be talking about #5 & 14. On 5, were they taking the fairway lines out to include that bunker on the short right of the green?

Can't wait to see what criticisms the self-styled Cassandras on this site lodge against that one.

"Wilson used a different strand of bluegrass that Fazio has neglected!!"

[golfnooch]

there are also new tees going on #2, #3, #5, #6 and #18...total length was told to me to be 7000 yards and change from the new tees.

by far #6 had the most work being done to the hole, as can be seen here, but a very dark picture, so squint!

[Mike_Cirba]

One has to wonder if the new back tees will leave even less room for the estimated maximum 13-15,000 spectators that the site could host per day.

Obviously, the US Open is the goal here.  

[golfnooch]

Golfnooch - What evidence did you see of expanding fairway lines? Specifically I would be talking about #5 & 14. On 5, were they taking the fairway lines out to include that bunker on the short right of the green?

Can't wait to see what criticisms the self-styled Cassandras on this site lodge against that one.

"Wilson used a different strand of bluegrass that Fazio has neglected!!"

yes, on #5, they had put fairway up and around the bunker short and right of the green.  I was told that because of the lengthening of the hole, this was done to tempt the players to take this route to the green, as with a 3-4 iron in their hands the only way to hold this green on a warm firm fast day would be to start the ball right of the green.

another dark picture, but you can barely see it up on the right, the lighter strands of grass:

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean;

No, no Cassandras here.  The widening of the fairway on 5 and 14 is certainly a wonderful thing, as was the tree clearing that I started a thread on here years ago to applaud.  

However, the bunker work still sucks.  One can be fair and still critical.

[golfnooch]

Golfnooch - What evidence did you see of expanding fairway lines? Specifically I would be talking about #5 & 14. On 5, were they taking the fairway lines out to include that bunker on the short right of the green?

Can't wait to see what criticisms the self-styled Cassandras on this site lodge against that one.

"Wilson used a different strand of bluegrass that Fazio has neglected!!"

on 14, i didnt notice any widening of the fairway from the tee, rather a narrowing since the last time i played:



but the approach seemed to widen to the left:

[Dan Kelly]

Do the bunkers in those pictures look a little ... I don't know
... OFF to anyone?

   

[Mike_Cirba]

No Dan;

You're just confused because that's exactly how they looked in 1930.  

[Chris Kane]

How can any club take itself seriously when the bunkers (integral to the strategy of the hole?) are fifteen feet from the fairway lines?

[golfnooch]

Do the bunkers in those pictures look a little ... I don't know
... OFF to anyone?

   

here are two good shots at the bunkers...you be the judge:





personally, it doesnt bother me at all, but i have to admit some of the edges do look forced.  For me, it was a very, very very minor distraction to what is a fabulous course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well, it certainly looks like from some of these pictrures that the California Wildfires have blackend the suburbs of Philadelphia. My God this fire is BIG!

O.K., enough of the joking...Sean, you can actually look at those bunkers and say, "whats wrong with them?"

And while it is great to hear it doesn't detract from the charm of Merion, at least for some, I just wish some of you would have had the opportunity to have seen it when Mike and I did--Now that was bunker work. (The Kittleman/Hanse/Valentine style stuff)

[Dan Kelly]

golfnooch --

I was just funnin'.

You see: I first ran across this site because of an article
about Merion's restoration/renovation/butchering/whatchamacallit
(by Joe Logan in the Philly Inquirer). The story mentioned, in passing, that
a bunch of golf-architecture fanatics had been arguing about
it online.

Arguing about it? Hell, they were ripping each other's
throats out about it! The thread went on and on and on and on.

I read every word of it -- astonished and fascinated and delighted
to discover that there were people on this Earth willing and able
to go about such a thing with such passion and at such
length!

I don't remember learning anything from it, other than the fact
that "upholstered" and "poofs" could be words relevant to
golf -- and that these guys were certifiably insane! (My cousin
calls the site www.golfnutz.com!)

My kind of people, I decided -- and stayed.

[golfnooch]

i played merion about 5 years ago, which i believe was before the changes?  anyway, if my memory serves me correct, the course was in much better condition back then.

My opinion is that the folks at Merion have chosen to go for a certain style, a style that does not sit well with some.  Its like someone who likes the looks of a Ralph Lauren walking into a Country Powder Blue Kitchen...just two completely different styles.  Having said that, if Merion is successful at reproducing their image of the 1930 Merion, then that is the style they choose and the feel they want, and regardless of what others opinions are they are succesful.

Having said that though, in my original post (that i took down myself because i dearly wanted to avoid this discussion and rather share a good experience with you all, which failed immediately) i spoke that i found the lengthening for the Amateur and the 1930 restoration in direct conflict with one another, they just dont match.

[SPDB]

Tommy - I don't claim that Merion bunkers are without fault.

But I don't subscribe to the Cirba/Naccarato Architectural Relativism school.

I do note that the bunkers lips are starting to settle.....a bit.

When was the first time you played/saw Merion? Last?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

golfnooch,
As one of those that was involved somewhat in the Merion "discussions" that Dan mentions, and that played the course before the changes, I can sympathize with all who wish to let the club know that the bunker changes weren't anything like what they looked-like in 1930. Some/most from the club will call it a matter of opinion. I think those the love Merion best are the one's to ge the most direct answer from, whether the bunker-end of the project came out right or not.

Difficult? Oh yes. Better? I don't think so. Comparable? Not even close! The old versions had character, while these, a exact sceintific name and species has not been found as of yet.

Thaks for posting the pictures, and it is appreciated.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, You know the answer to that question, and if you look and readd the above, I make note that I saw the site BEFORE the change.

Yes, they are starting to settle--many of them at the very base of the bunker when they crumble off and fall into the bunker from improper construction and/or lack of knowledge of the history of the soils. Do I know that history? NO! But I'm not the one that destroyed some of the most famous bunkers in golf.

But then why am I telling you all of this? You have first hand knowledge what is going on with the NEW Merion bunkers!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
One last question, What is your experience and references with the old Merion bunkers and the new Merion bunkers? Please tell everyone.

[Dan Kelly]

Mea maxima culpa!

[SPDB]

Tommy -
I'm not sure you answered my question, i was looking for more specificity. In asking, i wasn't trying to invite a counter question. But since you asked -

My first experience at Merion took place in the mid-90s and has continued with fairly regular frequency since then.

I'm not sure why my friendship with one of the consulting architects at Merion is any more germane than your friendship with Kittleman is, even though you constantly try to use it to impeach my ability to objectively assess Fazio's architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

The Cirba/Nacarrato Architectural Relativism school?  

Should I be getting residuals, or tuition payments?  

Sean;

I like much of Fazio's work.  

The last thing I wanted to see is a poor job at Merion (as well as Riviera).  They are two courses I love dearly.

The bunker work is poor from both an engineering as well as an aesthetic level.  That's a shame.  It doesn't make me happy...it just is.  

[SPDB]

The bunker work is poor from both an engineering as well as an aesthetic level.  

Mike - You are certainly qualified to make one of those statements.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
My friendship with Bill Kittleman is by a one chance hour meeting on the dirt fairways of Applebrook Golf Club during construction back in 2000. I consider him to be an icon simply because of his love and respect of Merion, as well as being a devout student of Golf Architecture. You know what Sean, I have never had the opportunity to speak to him since, other then to tell others to tell him I send my best. I can only hope you get to meet this interesting man and see why I would lavish such praise.

I also echo my setiments with Mike regarding Merion, Bel Air, and Riviera--They are abominations--From the looks of it in pictures and in theory of design principles set forth by two golfing legnends Dr. Alexander MacKenzie and Bobby Jones, so is Augusta National.

I don't know if your being facitious about Mike or not, but I consider him to be one of the best eyes that I know of when it comes to looking at golf courses.

Sean, I don't question your judgement, I question why you would let this pass as being acceptable in the Merion scope of things--GREAT golf course-GREAT clubhouse-GREAT experience-GREAT history and GREAT memories. I think the bunker work should have reflected that same greatness, as well as level of precision when it came to defining restoring or remodeling. There's just way too many mistakes along with the lack of communication that can be the result of trying to define those two words. Especially when they put a target date on it. (1930)

[SPDB]

And my questions regarding your experience with Merion?

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