[RBSpann]

Mr. Kelly,

If your last post accurately describes your criteria for acceptable greens, then Black Mesa meets and exceeds that mark by quite a bit.  I think this points up the difficulty of trying to judge a golf course based on photographs only.  I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but being there is worth a thousand pictures.  I have always had difficulty in fully appreciating a course from photographs alone, as it is almost impossible to capture with two dimensional photography the scale and subtleties necessary to form an accurate opinion.

I have played the course several times in various conditions, and have talked to many others who have played it as well.  There certainly is a measure of frustration to be had out there, but I'd say at least 90% of the folks who play it have a lot of fun on it.  (By the way - I haven't met a green anywhere that I couldn't 3-putt from six feet).   All I can say is that I still believe the course looks tougher than it plays, and it is certainly not in my experience, the unforgiving nightmare that you have described.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions... that is what makes the world go round.  The golf course which you describe in your initial post sounds like one which would not be very enjoyable to play.  However, in my experience that description does not sound like the course I know.  I fail to see how you can be so fully certain of the misery which must be Black Mesa without having been there personally to judge it for yourself.  

Lastly, if any fault lies in the construction of the golf course, do not blame the Shapers.  They built the course from detailed plans that I provided to them and I was there probing the depth of material on every green as it was finished.  If something is wrong, it goes back to me, not those guys who I believe did an exceptional job on a dramatic, but difficult piece of ground.

[Jason Hines]

Hi Mike K.

I will give you an example of fun putting greens, George P. and I were up against 2 guys that had a 10 to 15 stroke handicap advantage.  We took them to the 15th because of our putters.  That was to me was the definition of fun putting greens.

Jason

[Shaper]

George, I do believe you of course. I was speaking from my stance as also being a player not just a shaper. And I certainly never want this or any other post to become directed at someone personally . I have no ill intent toward anyone, anywhere. Certainly we all are intitled to our opinions. I for one, have never been able to beat around the bush. I think that if I did, I would be worthless here or anywhere else. I will say though, that if someone out there does direct a bashing (personally) in my direction, (and they have), be it known that I will never turn the other cheek. So I guess all of us should be prepared. I know I have done some bashing here (BM), but it was directed solely at the course and the work done there. I could never direct a bad word toward anyone personally. It just isn't me. Who knows, maybe in the future the architect (BM) will come out with something that I'll claim as being fabulous. Lets just see.

I want to say George, that if I led you into feeling that I was calling you a liar, I'm deeply sorry. It just was not the case.

Michael Kelly

[Bill_McBride]

So Jason, who set up that game?  Just wondering........  Good work hanging in there.

[Lou_Duran]

Dr. Swanson-

My, my, are we getting a little huffy here?

Baxter-

You have my vote for the Harry Truman "The Buck Stops Here" award.  It is a shame that politicians don't have your attitude and take credit for their hits as well as their errors.  But, from what I saw in NM, the bit about three-putting from six feet is something that you are not qualified to address.  I still remember the putt on 18 for birdie, and the other 36 or so swings more befiting a tournament player than the busy architect that you are.

Adam-

I suspect that we do look at the world from different perspectives.  You appear to be more creative and idealistic.  My training is more from the school of hard knocks than any fancy university.  Unfortunately, unless the owner of a golf course has unlimited funds, the customer has to be the key.  Can an extremely difficult course continuously attract the average player?  I don't know what the break-even point is at BM, perhaps somewhere around 30,000 annual rounds.  That is nearly impossible to achieve if the target market is restricted to mid-single digit handicap and lower players.

Many of us on this site fantasize about owning, building, and operating a quality course.   I look at my home club and see modification and renovation opportunities all over the place.  My imagined changes are often over-the-top, and convenient to my fantasy, they would carry my club to the top 100 strata.  But when I discuss these with my playing partners, they look at me like I am nuts.

I take my hat off to the Keisers, Baksts, and McDonalds (Dallas National developer) of the world.  They have a lot guts and tremendous vision to go far above the usual, the ordinary.  But their projects do not target or are dependent on the average golfer.

Concerning CPC, I would love to see a four-day regular tour event there.  Several rounds in the low 60s would be forthcoming.  Yes, the pros would have a lot of fun, but unless the wind is gusting, I don't think that it would pose a strong test of golf.  For me, you, and our good friend George Pazin, we would have the time of our lives while shooting somewhere around our handicaps (ok, I would have to Moriarty the 16th hole to do that).

I do hope that courses that take a chance such as BM and TRC are financially viable.  Variety is the spice of life.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

Help me to understand when you say "recreational golf." I don't doubt that Black Mesa may not be able to provide maximum enjoyment to the player who hits two fairways over and likely hits more ground balls than in the air. If that's the fault of Black Mesa I can name plenty of other more acclaimed courses that would have the same tage applied to them. How about Pine Valley -- Oakmont -- Winged Foot (West -- Shinnecock, etc, etc.

You also realize the folks at Black Mesa have no intention on getting greens to a speed of 10+ on a daily basis. Given the demands the existing contours present that type of speed is more than sufficient. The key to playing Black Mesa is knowing your limitations with each stroke and making sure you don't steer the long shot. Clearly, the teeth of the course really shows itself when the wind picks up. I still believe the course is one of the finest new courses you can play and for those seeking "recreational" outlets I'd advise them to play elsewhere in the Santa Fe area.

I know you and I discussed the aspects of Black Mesa when we played Dallas National. I can understand your comments but keep this in mind -- if people were to simply play the proper tees and really KNOW their limitations when playing -- a good bit of the "unfair" tags applied by people to such distinguished layouts would likely decline substanially. Unfortunately, too many people have a big ego -- bigger than the State of Texas -- and refuse to understand that in severe terrain conditions -- the kind you experience at Black Mesa -- you just have to realize that venturing too far in either direction can be taxing and likely to result in a few lost balls. Did it ever dawn on people to really learn how to play before venturing to such places. I'm not suggesting that people have to be single digit handicaps but realize that wild play is likely to be dealt with severely. If you MANAGE your game properly Black Mesa will reward the player over and over again.

I have found from the several times I have played Black Mesa that the course is not going to be dumbed down (thank God for that!) and that when you execute properly you will be rewarded in kind. I salute Baxter Spann for a commendable design and I equally tip my hat to the ownership and management team at BM in not simply following the route of least resistance and having a golf course that is simply another dumbed-down 18-hole layout with little in terms of flair, challenge and fun.

Michael Kelly:

I always enjoy reading the critique of people of golf courses simply from aerials or third hand info. How bout doing a little shoe leather and actually playing the course?

Oh, I forgot -- that's such novel and trivial concern. It's simply better to lob opinions from the cheap seats in left field. Next thing you'll be saying is that you know more baseball than Joe Torre.

[ian]

Micheal,

In the spirit of "happy hour", may I suggest the following?

I also am a shaper part time, but my greens have always needed rebuilding too!

[Shaper]

I have not been to Black Mesa but believe me, I have seen more than just photos.

If someone would like to pic my work apart, go for it, jump in the fire, I have a tanker full of fuel. Just remember, I am a shaping contractor not an architect so you will more than likely be picking apart some of your friends work as well. Please remember also that I am a player and have been longer than I've been a shaper.

As for living in a glass house and rocks and all that. I do live in one so get the rocks ready because I have. And I've already broken some windows so you'll feel at ease.

As for playing Black Mesa, maybe one day, that is if I have not already been banned.

[Shaper]

Ian, what a great photo. Nice looking kids. Do you mind if I download it? You look strangely familiar. Hey, if you place a Baileys bottle up on the shelf, I'll gladly join you.
Thanks,
Michael Kelly

[ian]

Have Bailey's...............

Bet you can tell I was puting together a humerous presentation.

[Michael Whitaker]

This is a perfect example of why no one should "critique" a course without having personally visited the site and/or played the course. Asinine comments like Michael's are a waste of time... just an attempt to stir the pot and rile the gullible. Come back when you have visited the course. Until then, good day.

[Shaper]

Mr. Spann, I would really like to know what inspired you at Black Mesa...seriously...please tell me. I want to understand more.
Michael Kelly

[Steve Lang]

MK,

What makes you think Mike Strantz is a friend if you've not seen him in twenty years?  Does he carry a picture of you drinking diesel rum, dui on your d6?  Just wondering..

Hey, You didn't find much negative in the BM threads because the gca.com folks basicly liked the course.  I can confirm Baxter's opinon that it looks a lot worse than it actually plays.. though I didn't like the dust and i didn't like the learning curve required there first time, it was definitely fun and that's my bottom line.  I don't care if I shoot low or not when I go to a course like that because, like any difficult or unique courses, you "could" learn to deal with it..

Are you concerned that the amount of fill doesn't even allow you to buy your flour to bake your bread?

How do you drain it?  Why would you care in that dry climate?  The primordal seas have long vanished and the natural washes left pretty much intact obviously still function.

One is not doomed in the rocks as much as high grass at most other courses, at least you can find your ball.. Rewards come when you learn where to hit it, so nothing ventured, nothing gained.. and who the hell ever said the game was fair?

I can't believe that you wouldn't want to play Black Mesa even if airfare was included..certainly the north side of Santa Fe area is not a golfing mecca or real destination unless you think the Hale Irwin Signature course makes it a day, but really!

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Lou,

I would rahter play golf on my course and enjoy the time with you than explain certain features.  Once done its done, you figure it out, I would just be irritated having to explain it, and I might not have a good explanation and that would be irritating for both of us.  I probably would have told you beat it and move on, but your friend/architect did the right thing I guess by trying to explain it.  You know sometimes the inspiration the moment you decide to do something is the only time you really understand why you did it.  It becomes hard to remember your thinking at that moment say 2 years later when playing with a curious partner.  I would leave the architect alone and enjoy the moment, enjoy the game.  Sometimes this scrutinizing, critiqueing just sucks the life out of things.  I sound like I have been visiting Ian's bar.  Hopefully you understand my well intended post.

[George Pazin]

Michael Kelly -

You didn't offend me in any way (it takes way more than that), I just don't know how to respond when I say something's fun & someone says I don't believe you. Believe me when I say I've had similar views after reading others' posts, but I don't know how they'd respond either.

Asking questions from a course from photos is one thing. Documenting changes to a course is another. You won't find a much bigger defender of photographic analysis than me, but I don't think it's remotely possible to determine how greens putt from a photo.

Case in point: I went to the Amateur at Oakmont almost every day this year. I took 2 rolls of pictures. These pictures can't even begin to compare to the real thing.

If you have more info than the photos, I think it might be prudent to share it, if you can do so without compromising another individual. If not, well, I'll probably just think you were trying to fire folks up with an incendiary post.

[Lou_Duran]

Kelly-

I do not take your post badly at all.  Your comments tend to validate my point.  It is human nature not to appreciate criticism.  Unfortunately, many of us do need honest feedback, specially when we get too close to the work.

My architect friend and I go back and forth with good natured ribbing which sometimes escalates a little too much.  I tend to feel freer than I should with my observations and advice because I appreciate informed feedback from others.  The Anglo-American culture is such that we step around many issues so much that we often fail to communicate entirely.  Our current affliction with political correctness is but one manifestation.

I know that no one likes to have their baby described in less than glowing terms.  But what is gained by dishonest flattery?

If I was an architect I would be very curious about what people think of my work both in general and in detail.  I am not an artist or a particularly creative person.  That doesn't mean that I wouldn't be bothered by negative feedback, but sometimes the best lessons are learned from mistakes which are so obvious to others but not so to me.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mr. Kelly- I hope you learn much from this website and welcome.

I will ask this of you:

 Do you have a deep appreciation for the 'complete package' as you must for subtle features or shapes?

Since,

If you've been working as a shaper (paintbrush) for close to twenty years (I am just a golfer, I experience your art) and unless you worked for C&C, Proctor and Axeland and/or herr Doak or the Ortiz family, I'd say your experience has been on what has been on 'the creme de la crap' era (not your fault i'm not attacking you) that came before (and even spurred) this new bold realisitic approach to golf. i.e. Side hill lies with unconventional stances from a fairway lie, are what shot-makers crave and use to their strength to negotiate a "real" golf hole.

Since I won't get a retractment ,ever, out of you, I will agree to meet five years to the day of BM's opening and we can see for ourselves.

Cheers,

[Bye]

Mr. Kelly- I hope you learn much from this website and welcome.

I will ask this of you:

 Do you have a deep appreciation for the 'complete package' as you must for subtle features or shapes?

Since,

If you've been working as a shaper (paintbrush) for close to twenty years (I am just a golfer, I experience your art) and unless you worked for C&C, Proctor and Axeland and/or herr Doak or the Ortiz family, I'd say your experience has been on what has been on 'the creme de la crap' era (not your fault i'm not attacking you) that came before (and even spurred) this new bold realisitic approach to golf. i.e. Side hill lies with unconventional stances from a fairway lie, are what shot-makers crave and use to their strength to negotiate a "real" golf hole.

Since I won't get a retractment ,ever, out of you, I will agree to meet five years to the day of BM's opening and we can see for ourselves.

Cheers,

So, unless you've worked for those you've listed above you haven't worked?

I'd love to know what you do for a living so we can compare to the groundbreakers in your profession.

[Brian Phillips]

Mr. Kelly,

If your last post accurately describes your criteria for acceptable greens, then Black Mesa meets and exceeds that mark by quite a bit.  I think this points up the difficulty of trying to judge a golf course based on photographs only.  I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but being there is worth a thousand pictures.  I have always had difficulty in fully appreciating a course from photographs alone, as it is almost impossible to capture with two dimensional photography the scale and subtleties necessary to form an accurate opinion.

I have played the course several times in various conditions, and have talked to many others who have played it as well.  There certainly is a measure of frustration to be had out there, but I'd say at least 90% of the folks who play it have a lot of fun on it.  (By the way - I haven't met a green anywhere that I couldn't 3-putt from six feet).   All I can say is that I still believe the course looks tougher than it plays, and it is certainly not in my experience, the unforgiving nightmare that you have described.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions... that is what makes the world go round.  The golf course which you describe in your initial post sounds like one which would not be very enjoyable to play.  However, in my experience that description does not sound like the course I know.  I fail to see how you can be so fully certain of the misery which must be Black Mesa without having been there personally to judge it for yourself.  

Lastly, if any fault lies in the construction of the golf course, do not blame the Shapers.  They built the course from detailed plans that I provided to them and I was there probing the depth of material on every green as it was finished.  If something is wrong, it goes back to me, not those guys who I believe did an exceptional job on a dramatic, but difficult piece of ground.

Micheal,

Sounds like you are going to have to visit the site dude.  

The greens have been played on by a number of members from here and they say they are good.  Baxter says that the greens meet your criteria in relation to % of grading.

He has also achieved one of the best things an architect can achieve...he gets a golfer (including an experienced hand like yourself) to think a hole is difficult when really it isn't.  This is something MacKenzie was a genius at.

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Bye- I know I was being a bit closed there, but it has been my experience that the "new breed" of GCA mentioned above have created the type of golf that stimulates intellectually, where as before there is a predominance of courses where there is no need or desire to golf, everyday, for the rest of your life. Sorry, for the stereotyping but it is easier to make a point without all the qualifiers.

Oh, that is my occupation, I find great golf and golf it over and over.

[Brian Phillips]

Adam,

I think you are very harsh on Micheal.  Have you looked at his website, i wouldn't say his work has been with the 'creme de la crap' at all.

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

I missed the website and I wasn't calling his work crap.

[THuckaby2]

He has also achieved one of the best things an architect can achieve...he gets a golfer (including an experienced hand like yourself) to think a hole is difficult when really it isn't.  This is something MacKenzie was a genius at.

Brian

Damn that is right on and my feeling is Baxter sure as hell did achieve this at Black Mesa.  I know others, including my friend Lou, find it to be too difficult for the average player... but I sure didn't find it that way - it seemed to me that on every hole there was a wide area to hit to, one just might have to lay back a bit.  And as for the greens, hell yes they are wild and hell yes they are tough, but at least when we were there they were kept at a speed to make the VERY doable... Those greens were cupcakes compared to Pasatiempo at high speed, for example... I love them and really cite them as the perfect greens, best new ones I've see built - that is, lots of contour, but with SANE speeds to make them doable.

So in the end, I really do think Brian nailed is - BM is a course with holes that look tougher than they really are... assuming one plays smart.... And for those who don't care to or don't want to play smart, the chances for heroic shots are all over the place too....

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Mr Kelly, on your web site, you feature a course in Chile with a certain bunker set or cluster depicting it during construction through grow in with no less than eight pictures.  

http://www.designshaper.com/CurrentProject.html

Are you particularly enamoured with that specific piece of work?  If so, why?

On your 'projects' page, you feature much of your work in apparently high rainfall areas.  Do you specialize in tropical sites?  Have you a certain mindset about slope and contour moderation due to the apparent greater experience in high rainfall/big washout difficult drainage problems terrain, soil, and climate?  Have you ever worked for a minimalist architect that uses surface drainage schemes and northern US terrain and climate?

If you'd be so kind, look at the Sutton Bay series of photos and comments I posted, and tell me as a shaper what you see.

Thanks
RJ

[Shaper]

Hi Clay Man, Sorry I don't know your name. Thank you for the welcome. I am learning so much here on this site and I hope we all are.

Yes of course, I do have a deep appreciation for the "complete package". I'm not in any way stuck on "subtle".
I like "wild" too...in the correct placement. I've seen it all. Actually, I have been in this business since my first contract at 17 years old and I will hit the big 5-0 next month. (SHIT)!
But if you want to count all the years, I was picking roots and rocks off fairways (in the planting process) many years before I hit 17. And I was playing golf way before I was a shaper. I say all this because I LOVE GOLF. I live and breath it every minute of my life. I dream of it. I have lost sleep over it, (much more now and here). After all "that", I'll never say I'm the best at it but I am very proud of my work. And I am very proud to have worked with those in "the creme de la crap" era. Clay Man, I know you were not attacking me but I hope you realize what different can of worms your last post opened. You have to stand up for it. No backing down now.
I will give you just a partial list of my "creme de la crap" friends; George Fazio, Tom Fazio, Jim Fazio, Robert Trent Jones Sr., Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Robert von Hagge, Tom Kite, Robert Cupp, Art Hills, Dr. Michael Hurdzan and on and on.... I have given you just 11 names and I wonder if anyone here would care to rate these "creme de la crappers"? (I must have been the janitor in that era) Remember, there are more names available and some have been seen on this site. Lets say on the scale from 1 to 10. 1 being;who is hanging on just above the crapper, 10 being; who is drowning in the crapper.
Any takers???

I am willing Clay Man, to stand with you at Black Mesa five years from now. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll bend down and kiss your feet.

I would like to know the honest opinion of the superintendent at Black Mesa concerning only his in and out everyday work program and results. Is that possible?

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