[Dan Kelly]

Patrick --

If modern architects avoid duplicating/adapting classic hole designs (I'll presume, for the sake of argument, that you're right about that), my guess is that they do so for the same reason that many writers avoid cliches like the plague.

That reason is: vanity. They don't want anyone accusing them of writing cliched prose -- even if a cliche happens to be the best way to communicate an idea.

After all, cliches most often get to be cliches because they communicate so effectively -- just as classic hole designs got to be classics because they made the golf on them so interesting.

And so it goes.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't any modern architect who "duplicated" holes, especially his own be roundly criticized here?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

Yes, they probably would.

But, criticism must be measured by its source.

The merits of the design of a hole should be the primary test.

It Tillinghast, CBMacDonald, Seth Raynor and Charles Banks can design and build replica holes so can you or anybody else, and not be criticized for it on the sole basis of duplication.

My question to TEPaul and Wayne Morrisson is, has their research shown any indication that Flynn routinely or randomly duplicated holes ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick,

On the contrary, modern architects duplicate golf holes (or parts of them) all the time.

I've been guilty of it myself occasionally, and just today I played at East Hampton which has several holes I've seen from Coore & Crenshaw elsewhere.  (for example, their 11th green at East Hampton is based on the 8th at Sand Hills)

Most other architects do this as well, but in many cases they fall in love with some original design of their own instead of imitating great holes like the Eden.  For example, I've seen that short par-5 with the buttonhook or island green on about ten Jack Nicklaus designs, not counting Bear's Best.

However, I am still not a big fan of plagiarism in golf course design.  If you can't think of a design for a par 3 hole that's more imaginative than the Biarritz, you ought to find another line of work.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
The first at Apache Stronghold, compared to the hole at Lost Dunes that has what looks to be a similar protecting dune in the front half of the green, only the opposite side.

Are those green contours similar?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

Isnt there a difference between reusing a template as opposed to repeating certain general strategic principles when the opportunity (the land, wind, and other circumstances) presents itself?  

As for you wanting more cape holes, cape holes seem to be a dime a dozen on many of the newer courses I have seen.  Cape holes which actually work, however, are very rare.  Perhaps it takes more than a sound "template"  to make a sound golf hole.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

If you look at the redans at NGLA, Shinnecock, Piping Rock, The Knoll, Yale and others, while they are variations of a theme, they are basically templates that succeed quite well, and most of them are totally artificial or constructed as opposed to just being there, in the land.

The Biarritz at Yale, Piping Rock, The Knoll and others aren't naturally found as much as they are constructed.

The same with Eden holes At Yale, The Knoll, GCGC, etc.,etc..

All of these holes have stood the test of time and remain exceptional golf holes enjoyed by most golfers.

Why wouldn't you want to incorporate them in a design.

I don't think that anyone standing on the 18th tee at GCGC or the 15th tee at Yale or the 13th tee at NGLA says,
"what an inferior hole, and, I've seen it before"

Approaching the 8th green at Piping Rock or the 7th Green at NGLA isn't boring or unchallenging, in fact, it's rather exciting, despite having seen and played the original road hole.

Like rare gems, certain golf holes are enduring and precious.

Tom Doak,

I thought # 17 at Pacific Dunes was a fabulous hole on a grand scale.  Big, bold and challenging.
In no way was my feeling about the hole diminished because I had seen variations of the hole previously.

Sometimes originality can be forced when a template might be the perfect solution.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, I agree with what David is saying, but also agree with what you are saying in regards to holes artifiically constructed. Still, I don't think for one second that Raynor would have copied a hole to such an exacting nature as the word "template" defines.

According to Websters

tem·plate--A pattern or gauge, such as a thin metal plate with a cut pattern, used as a guide in making something accurately, as in woodworking or the carving of architectural profiles.

It's like my faux paux forgetting the 18th is an Eden at GCGC. It represents the strategy but doesn't duplicate the exact dimensions, nature and details of the original.

Maybe when Raynor was building these holes on blank canvases, it was expressly for the purpose that they fit in perfectly for that paticualar point in the round, and that the ground gave him the opportunity to do so?

However you want to define it, I don't think for one secod that any of the holes mentoned in this thread aren't true strategems.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

I never suggested that everything about the hole had to have exactly the same dimensions as all the others.
I even stated that the holes had their own nuances, but remained essentially a copy of one another.

Anyone who has played the holes I mentioned, other than Ray Charles, knows what they saw and played.  The 15th at Yale, 13th at NGLA and 18th at GCGC, all bear the same, distinct, basic design.

Anyone who has played the 13th at The Knoll, the 9th at Yale and the 9th at Piping Rock knows that these greens are the same, distinct, basic design, although the dimensions may be different.

From your old geometry days in high school you know the difference between similar and congruent triangles, just apply it to golf holes and you'll get the feel of this issue.

But, you know what I meant and so did Dave, who's just looking to disagree, despite the fact that he knows better on this issue.  

What puzzles me is: Why aren't there more road hole greens ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick, I totally know what you are saying, and there should be more road hole greens or at least greens that provoke the golfer and will swallow him up alive for failure to communicate.

[DMoriarty]

If you look at the redans at NGLA, Shinnecock, Piping Rock, The Knoll, Yale and others, while they are variations of a theme, they are basically templates that succeed quite well, and most of them are totally artificial or constructed as opposed to just being there, in the land.

The Biarritz at Yale, Piping Rock, The Knoll and others aren't naturally found as much as they are constructed.

The same with Eden holes At Yale, The Knoll, GCGC, etc.,etc..

All of these holes have stood the test of time and remain exceptional golf holes enjoyed by most golfers.

Why wouldn't you want to incorporate them in a design.

Patrick, unfortunately I have never played any of the courses you list, so I cant really comment on whether these are "templates" or repeated use of well tested strategic principles.  I don't doubt, though, that they are all great holes.  But I have always heard that, while Raynor certainly manufactured golf holes, he did so in a manner which worked with the surrounds.   Perhaps I have heard wrong.  I am sure all the redans are recognizable as Redan's, but is it really accurate to call them duplicates?    

You mention Doak's 17th at PD.  This is a very good example of what I am trying to say.  Tom Doak uses  a very familiar strategic theme (one that even I recognized, without having seen any of Raynor's redans), but does so in a way that fits perfectly into the surrounds.   I doubt that he worried much about duplicating any exact dimensions or elevations when creating the hole, other than trying to make it work strategically and aesthetically.  

I don't know if this quite works, but perhaps if we compared golf courses to other works of art.  Monet sometimes painted over a hundred paintings of the same subject.  While each one is very similar to the others, each one was a different study of a different light or slightly different angle.  I would consider most of these paintings to be great works of art and would not consider them to be duplicates.  

However, if an inferior artist tried to paint the same subject matter, I doubt his effort would work as well.  Likewise, if an expert copy artist copied a Monet exactly, it might look right, but would lack the originality and authenticity which further enhances the greatness of the work.

Am I "just looking to disagree," despite the fact that I know better?  Well, I probably wouldnt bother posting if I agreed.  But as explained above in the first paragraph, I don't know better when it comes to the great "duplicate" holes.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

But I have always heard that, while Raynor certainly manufactured golf holes, he did so in a manner which worked with the surrounds.   Perhaps I have heard wrong.  I am sure all the redans are recognizable as Redan's, but is it really accurate to call them duplicates?    
     

Yes, it is accurate to call them all duplicates.

I would ask you, who did you hear that from, and what golf courses and holes were they referencing ?

Believe me, these holes didn't emerge from the land and surrounding land, they were constructed there, and like sore thumbs, they stick out, as do many "short" holes.

I will also throw into the mix Seth Raynor's redan, # 6 at Westhampton. And, Tillinghast's redan # 2 at Somerset Hills.
Perhaps Bank's reverse redan at Forsgate as well.

Are they identical, no, but if an observer didn't recognize their cookie cutter pattern, well, there's no sense in discussing it further.

It's unfortunate that you haven't played all of the holes that I've mentioned, they are challenging, fun and memorable.

"Scotland's Gift" is a good place to start as the designer succession goes to Raynor then Banks who are largely responsible for these duplicate holes.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

"Are they identical, no, but if an observer didn't recognize their cookie cutter pattern, well, there's no sense in discussing it further."

Some novice observers might benefit from further insight, which would mean there is a possibility that there is sense in discussing it further. For example, a novice observer might know what the green shape and slope is on a redan, but wouldn't know how tee to green elevation affects the shot. Duplication can be painted with a broad brush which might hide the details that would otherwise be known as "exact duplication".

Some of us are still learning, please be patient!  

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe Hancock,

Redans enjoy a unique structure, a unique visual and a unique feel.

Perhaps I'm viewing this as an easterner, spoiled by having seen and played many of these redans and reverse redans in the Met area.

Hackensack
Essex County
Montclair
Westhampton
Shinnecock
NGLA
Piping Rock
The Creek
The Knoll
Somerset Hills
Forsgate

And probably a few more that I've forgotten or haven't played.

I took for granted that those interested in golf course architecture would have done a little homework on their own, with respect to hole design.  I can also recall Professor George Bahto educating us on the true definition of a cape hole, citing NGLA's original at the 14th.

Books like "Scotland's Gift", in the NGLA chapter, illustrated on page 189 would also help, as would Professor George Bahto's book, The Evangelist of Golf" which devotes a chapter to NGLA and pages to the "Redan" hole, complete with illustrations, diagrams and pictures on pages 90-94.

A "Redan" might be a little like pornography.  You might not be able to define it, but I think you'll recognize it when you see it.  

[DMoriarty]

Patrick, as I said above, I can't really dispute your claim that all the East Coast redan's you mention are duplicates.  But could it be that the strategic principles of a redan are so strong and defined that it is inevitable that just about any par 3 accurately applying the strategic principles will closely resemble the others?   Could it be that the "cookie cutter pattern" you recognize has more to do with copying the strategic principle than the actual hole?

Would you consider the 17th at Pacific Dunes to be a duplicate or an original design?  The 4th at Riviera?  Is the first par 3 on the back at LACC (the 12th, i think) a duplicate reverse redan or a Thomas original?  

Also, you mention George Bahto's helpful clarification on the original "cape hole."  In the preceding thread, when you asked why more cape holes werent built, were you referring to the original or the common modern perception?

Last Question:  Did CB MacDonald think the original redan hole was being copied, or that the strategic principle of the redan was being repeatedly implimented?

The principle (of the Redan) can be used with an infinite number of variations. . . In reality there are only four or five kinds of good holes in golf. The local scenery supplies the variety.  Here is one of the four or five perfect kinds, the principle of the Redan.

--CB MacDonald, from George Bahto's The Evangalist of Golf, p. 94.

[Paul_Turner]

Of the par 3 set used by Macdonald and Co, the Redan seems to be the most diverse.  For example the Redan at Yale is only loosely similar to the Redan at Piping Rock; both fit the hook for the right hander, but there's a big drop at Yale, whereas at Piping Rock it's more in the North Berwick mould, being slightly uphill and slightly blind.

In my experience the Biarritz, Eden and Short don't lend themselves to being so diverse.  You don't see reverses of these templates, for one!  But how about a reverse Biarritz?  Revers Eden, sloping sharply away?

[david h. carroll]

The real question in my mind relates to why, when given the original plans, doesn't the contemporary architect just build it out?  For instance, at my home course, Tillie apparently did plans for another 18 but the membership never built it and when the west course was built in the early 1960's the membership elected to have Ed Ault build a piece of crap...then in the early 90's when the opportunity presented itself to redo the West in the Tillie way, with the original routing/plans, we instead brought in the dynamic duo of Cupp/Kite to "renovate" the west course...ah, what could have been!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

I couldn't tell you what CBM was thinking.

To answer your first question, no, the redans are unmistakeable cookie cutter patterns at Piping Rock, NGLA, Westhampton as are the reverse redans at Shinnecock and Forsgate.  The others are similar with some variations, like the 3rd on the fourth nine at Montclair, The Knoll and others.

If you saw them, I think even you would be forced to agree with me, and I know how difficult that is for you  ,
But, I think the physical evidence is overwhelming, even for contrarians.

PTurner mentions the Biarritz, the short and other holes that have fewer variations.  The Biarritz at Yale, Piping Rock and The Knoll are quite similar although there is more slope to the rear of the 9th at Yale then the other two.  But, the cookie cutter pattern is unmistakeable.

Lastly, I was referencing the original 14th at NGLA

[T_MacWood]

Wasn't one of the reasons Macdonald sought to identify the best golf holes and to build replicas was his desire to introduce 1st class golf to America?

Macdonald strikes me as an extremely creative man with an active mind. Would constantly reproducing many of the same model holes from course to course become old after a while? Did that contribute to Macdonald loosing interest in design?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

It's an interesting question, one that may never be answered.

He did design replicas on other courses, as did his disciples, Raynor and Banks, and they designed and built plenty of them.

Perhaps he wanted others to see the great hole designs at other courses, and not just those golfers who could find their way to the remote end of Long Island.

I think that theory may be more compelling.

His desire to spread the gospel.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick, if I ever play the courses mentioned and actually see it the same way the same way you do, I would have no trouble agreeing with you.  

With a course list like yours above, I understand why you are comfortable sticking to the  East. But lets extend the conversation west to try to find some common ground (literally), to a little more recent setting, since that is what your original post contemplates.  

Is 17 at Pacific Dunes a duplicate Redan or an original creation?    

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

I think one could say that # 17 is a hybrid redan on steroids.

[Forrest Richardson]

As some of you know I "debunked" the standard, tried-and-true "Penal, Stretagic and Heroic" nonsense — writing that all golf holes are strategic, even in the absence of strategy. Whether you agree is another matter.

Could we not do the same with the standard list one often finds indicating golf hole types? No list is complete. It only references what we have seen thus far. Also, it tends to limit imagination and discussion.

[BCrosby]

I agree with Forrest.

The deepest "bias" on GCA is not prejudgments of courses by Rees or C&C or Doak.

The deepest bias on GCA is that the MacD/Raynor template holes are of such unsurpassed architectural brilliance that they ought to be duplicated whenever possible.

Seems to me the people that have designed and built golf courses over the last eight decades have cast their vote on that issue.

While the redan, cape and (maybe) eden concepts have been used again and again, the other template holes have not.

Might it be because the other template holes aren't that good? That they aren't very special afterall?

Bob

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

I don't believe that anyone suggested that these template holes should be duplicated whenever possible, but perhaps I missed it.  Could you identify the post that made that proclamation ?

With repsect to the template holes, they were that good.

Redan
Eden
Short
Biarritz
Cape
Bottle
Valley
Alps
Knoll
Hogback
Plateau
Double Plateau

One only has to play:

Westhampton
Somerset Hills
NGLA
Shinnecock
The Knoll
Yale
Essex County (NJ)
Montclair
Hackensack
Forsgate
GCGC
Piping Rock
The Creek

And many other courses to see how well they fit and excell as challenging and sporty golf holes.

It is only recently that architects have seemed to shy away from them.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()