News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2006, 08:03:48 AM »
Brad -

That's right. I've found nothing to corroborate the Seminole story. If anything the building of the new no. 2 course at EL would have been a better test run for Ross if he had the ANGC commission in mind. Jones would have been there to see and discuss everything Ross did. (The old timers EL tell me that the no. 2 course (NLE) was a better course than the current no. 1. From the 1938 aerials it must have been amazing.)

BTW, who was that other architect competing for the Seminole job? Is there any informed speculation out there? S. Thompson? Flynn?

Bob  

« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:08:42 AM by BCrosby »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2006, 08:10:34 AM »
I tried finding out who the other one was but Seminole didn't have a record or at least never could tell me. I always thought it was Langford, who was doing some work in Florida, but my bet is that Flynn would have been a very strong competitor as well.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:10:53 AM by Brad Klein »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2006, 08:19:43 AM »
At about that time Thompson had set up an office in JAX and was nosing around for more Florida work. That's why I threw his name in the hat.

Did Langford actually build any courses in Florida?

Bob
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:26:54 AM by BCrosby »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2006, 08:36:38 AM »
Langford did eight courses in Florida in the 1920s, most of which don't still exist, though I have heard good things about his military-base course up in Pensacola from the 1920s that does remain in recognizable shape. I also recall seeing his proposed routing for a course in Lake Wales, though that never got built (and I could be off on that one, anyway. For some reason, I remmember seeing it on display with some historical material in that famous old inn there, Chalet Suzanne).

T_MacWood

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2006, 10:36:21 AM »
I've never thought of Langford as a possible canidate to design Seminole but that would make sense. Langford spent his winters in Palm Beach. He was a member of something called the Old Guard Society...Travis was also a member. The OGS would play a series of golf tournaments in the Palm Beach area. I believe Chris Dunphy (the main man at Seminole) was also a member of the Old Guard. If I'm not mistaken Langford redesigned Everglades and Mountain Lake - two blueblood haunts in the same neighborhood.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 10:39:04 AM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2006, 02:55:35 PM »
Tom

Did you mean Langford did work on Everglades and Breakers in Palm Beach?  The work at the Breakers seems to have preceeded the opening of Seminole.  

I find it  somewhat ironic that Langford actually worked on a Raynor course like Everglades so I guess its possible he worked on Mountain Lake as well.    

"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2006, 03:59:12 PM »
Tom -

Interesting about the OGC. I had not heard of it before.

Travis was also a member of a similar group called the Coversation Club. It met in NYC in the summers and Augusta in the winters to talk politics (of a conservative stripe, I assume) and play golf. Members included a couple of US representatives, a retired Canadian PM, professors from Yale and a number of wealthy merchants and bankers.

I found it interesting that Joshua Crane was also a member.

The CC members played golf in Augusta at the Augusta CC, which is where Jones played golf in the '20's. A number of the founding members of ANGC came from the CC. I wish I knew more about the CC's goings on.

You gotta tip your hat to Travis. A man of remarkable interests, talent and energy.

Bob
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 04:02:53 PM by BCrosby »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2006, 04:11:20 PM »
Brad and Bob, I just want to be clear on this subject about ANGC and Ross. Fay mentions in his book "Golf as it was meant to be played" that Ross "lost out to Alister Mackenzie in vying for the project at ANGC." Are you saying that Ross was never in the running at all?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2006, 04:19:05 PM »
That's what I am saying.

I think that is what Brad is saying too.

That canard has been in circulation for years. If someone has evidence of a competition between Ross and MacK for the ANGC commission, I am happy to change my mind. But as I see it, all the available evidence points the other way. MacK was always Jones's guy.

Remember that from the get-go Jones wanted to build a different kind of course. Even a radical course. That was in MacK's wheelhouse. It fits his CV. Ross's conservative style never made much sense given Jones's goals. There was no short list as far as I know, but if there had been one my guess is that it is more likely that (after MacK) a Thomas or a Behr would be on it before Ross would have been.

Bob
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 04:31:56 PM by BCrosby »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2006, 04:25:02 PM »
Thanks Bob. Very interesting. I'm guessing, and this is purely guessing, that perhaps this canard started becuase Ross found out about the project and tried to change their minds (?) and sell himself over Dr. Mack. Very unusual if that is the case considering Ross was having work come to him on a regular basis.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2006, 04:35:16 PM »
David -

By '30 or maybe '31, pretty much everyone on the golf world knew Jones was going to build his "ideal course". I assume every living architect would have cut off an important limb or two to get the job. That would have included Ross. But the job was never put out for bid.

Bob

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2006, 05:54:18 PM »
Tom Doak and others,

How about recent "competitions" for such courses as WeKoPa #2, Whisper Rock #2 and Erin Hills?

Steve
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 05:55:38 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2006, 07:04:02 PM »
Steve:

Funny you should mention that -- all three of those courses sent out press releases or something naming some of the candidates they considered for the job.  All included my name, and all of them did indeed contact us, but I only interviewed for one of the three (Erin Hills) and passed on the others.  It seems as if they are trying to establish credibility for their decision by listing a bunch of other names, whether or not all those people were even interested in the job.

If a client really wants architects to "compete" for a job, it seems to me that they don't really know what they want.  It would have to be a hell of a piece of ground for me to spend time on it, if they are still trying to decide between me and ten other guys.  As long as there are plenty of people who really want me to design their course, I'll probably stick with the ones who want me instead of trying for jobs I may not win.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2006, 08:30:52 PM »
David Stamm,
Bob Crosby is correct, that's exactly what I am saying, too.

There is no mention anywhere in Ross' remaining files that I could find of any word, any bitterness, any interest in Augusta National. By the time the commission came around he was very busy just trying to save Pinehurst from going under and his travels in the GA and Fla. were very much curtailed. I doubt he ever played ANGC, he certainly did not do any new work in Georgia or Florida 1930-1938 and hardly was ever there, if at all, afterwards on serious work until after WWII. He certainly issued no words of bitterness or regrets about it in any of the hundreds of letters and telegrams from the 1930s that I read.

That story materialized many, many years later, long after he died.

T_MacWood

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2006, 11:03:57 PM »
I believe the source of the story - that Ross redesigned #2 after not getting the ANGC job - was Charles Price.

One can speculate that Price either fabricated it or he heard from Ross himself (Price lived in Pinehurst and befriended the old man in his last years) or he was repeating hearsay (something he may heard from another sportswriter or a local). We will probably never know the truth.

Its too bad Ross died before writing his memoirs, a few months before he died he'd asked Herb Graffis to help him write it.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2006, 05:54:39 AM »
Ross redesigned and rerouted No. 2 throughout the 1920s, and was always tinkering with grassed turf plots for the putting surfaces, not actually getting to replacing the sand greens with a workable turf until just before the 1936 PGA Championship there.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2006, 07:19:36 AM »
It is perhaps a sign of the financial difficulties that Pinehurst was having that they didn't convert their sand greens until the mid thirties.

Every private club I know of in GA had converted to grass by the late 20's.

Tom MacW -

Charles Price was an interesting guy. He was more prone than most to pick up and publish gossip. Which I think is a good thing. He did a fair amount of winging it, something that is always more revealing than writers who play it too straight. I'll happily tradeoff a little misdirection for some fruitful off the wall speculation.

Price became good friends with Jones. I think his books on ANGC remain the best of the lot. Is he still alive?

Bob
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 07:32:37 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2006, 08:37:48 AM »
"What was the competition like to finish Pine Valley after Crump croaked."

JohnK:

As far as I can see there was no real competition amongst architects to finish Pine Valley.

But one definitely does need to ask why the club brought in Hugh Alison as they did in 1921 to produce a hole by hole recommendation report of how to finally finish off the course and put it into really playable architectural shape.

There's little question that the completion of the last four holes to be built (#12-15) were the combined efforts of the Wilsons of Merion, William Flynn (of Merion) and Crump's long-term foreman Jim Govan.

Not just that but at that time Pine Valley had a ton of practicing architects as members---eg Hugh Wilson, William Flynn, Howard Toomey (who was actually on the board at that time), George Thomas, perhaps Max Behr, and probably others. A.W Tillinghast apparently never was a member of PV but they all sure knew he was around PV enough and contributed to it with Crump at least early on. So did Travis, and probably Macdonald.

So why then did the so-called "1921 Advisory Committee" that was charged with finishing off the course once and for all and putting it into real playable shape hire Hugh Alison of England?

That is a most interesting question. And they didn't just hire him, they actually made him a member of that 1921 Advisory Committee.

My sense is they did it because they really did feel the course had a close and serious connection to Harry Colt and his company. After-all it appears that Colt was the only architect that George Crump actually hired. Obviously the club understood that. But they also understood what Crump himself had done there in the ensuing years following the final departure of Colt in 1913. This was eight years later, and it obviously seemed logical to them to turn to the company Crump himself once depended on the most. Crump undeniably appeared to listen to many people, many architects and others but in the end there is no question at all he did what he wanted to do down there. But there is no question either that of all the architects who came there and offered collaborative architectural help and suggestions to Crump, the one man who did the most for him and the course was Colt.

The very significance of Colt's suggestion to place the 5th green where it is rather than where Crump had it made the entire progression and sequence of the course fall into place. This does not at all mean that Colt actually routed or designd the rest of the holes, just that that particular placement of that green made everything perhaps almost immediately fall into an understandable routing order and sequence. The mere suggestion of that highly demanding green placement of #5 by Colt was essentially the piece that completed the jigsaw puzzle (other than the years long dilemma Crump had on 12-15, but that's another story altogether ;) ). For that reason alone it is no wonder at all to me that Colt is given so much credit for that single recommendation on #5. One pretty much needs to understand some of the complexities of routing to understand that and why.

But the history of the creation of that course can accurately reflect that if there was one man that Crump truly once depended on most, it was without question England's Colt.

Those who have said on here that Pine Valley in some way tried to disrespect Colt by somehow minimizing him to glorify Crump just basically don't have any idea what they are talking about. That never happened down there, at least not at that time.

This in no way changes the tue story of what Colt did there and was responsible for to do with the ultimate design of that course and what Crump was ultimately responsible for in the finished product of what Pine Valley became. Those who somehow try to minimize what-all Crump did and was to that course just don't get what-all he did there and how.

The thing that's so interesting about the 1921 Advisory Committee is not just that they hired Colt's partner Alison but that ALL OF THEM, including Alison, very much worked towards completing that course in the SPIRIT and in many of the details of what they thought Crump wanted to do and intended to do had he lived to see the course mature in design and in play.

It's a unique and remarkable story, the entire creation of Pine Valley from its beginning in 1912 to its final completion in 1921-2. In my opinion, there is not another one remotely like it in the entire history of golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 08:46:22 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2006, 01:32:53 PM »
Ross redesigned and rerouted No. 2 throughout the 1920s, and was always tinkering with grassed turf plots for the putting surfaces, not actually getting to replacing the sand greens with a workable turf until just before the 1936 PGA Championship there.

Thats true, but the changes Ross made in the 30s were significant, not only creating 18 new greens (to replace totally flat sand-greens) but also building several new holes. For the most part creating the course we know today.

All those changes (the new greens, new holes and lengthening) were made prior to the PGA being awarded to Pinehurst.

Bob
I think Price died about a decade ago. I wasn't aware that Price was known for the gossip, but come to think of it I believe he may have been the one to mention Crump's suicide.

Another possible angle on why Ross redid #2. With the publicity Augusta was getting I wonder if there was pressure on Pinehurst to remain the foremost winter destination, especially under the existing economic circumstances and what I would think was a very limited number of potential visitors.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2006, 03:02:00 PM »
Tom Mac

I think it was Price who speculated that after ANGC opened, a number of architects told him that they went back and rethought some of their courses. He didn't mention Ross by name, but it would not be crazy to think that after the huge splash that ANGC at its openning - no rough, minimal bunkers, huge playing corridors, wild contouring - people saw their own courses in a different light.

But it was the depths of the Depression and very few courses had the wherewithall to do much about it. PII would have been an exception. Ross was in a position to make changes there. Just speculatin'

Bob  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 03:03:15 PM by BCrosby »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back