[Paul Carey]

A little bit of infomation on the Avenal renovation:

1.) The changes are being designed by the in house architects of the PGA Tour.
2.) The Only a few holes will have major changes.  The sixthe will move the green to the left of the creek and become a par four for the PGA Tour if it ever returns.  The 10th (par 4) and 11th (par 3)  will become a par five.  The 13th (an awkward par 5) will become a par 4 and a par 3.
3.)   They have applied for permits and there are some environmental issues and plan to start construction in the summer.  Since it is in the Peoples Republic of Montgomery County it may be delayed for many reasons.

Paul

[Philippe Binette]

A course so bad they are going to host the US Open on it

Torrey Pines is really bad...

Now that I have walked the new Reesified Royal Montreal Blue Course, it could be in the list

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The two NOLA courses as well as Redstone and TPC Woodlands in Houston are just averages courses. I am not sure how they compare to the other averages courses the tour plays on but these 4 are just that.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I guess there is a trend if the word TPC is on the title. hmmmmm

[Dale_McCallon]

As a caveat, let me say that I'm more of the Huckaby School of Architecture that says any golf is better than no golf.

But that being said, the first tournament I ever went to was the St Judes in Memphis.  And I guess I just thought at the time any course that hosted a tour event had to be pretty special.  But the TPC Southwind just seems so dull and boring.  I know they have rebuilt some greens since then, but the course seemed like a real yawn.

[John Foley]

Up untill this year I would have said En-Joie in Binghamton NY home of the BC Open. Suprising no other votes for it.

Jay - You think Atunyote is that bad?? I'll agree that the greens could use some more movement but the routing is pretty solid and the shot values.

Now is it worth what the $$ the Oneida's are charging?/ No even close, but IMHO it was a better course than I expected and #2 of the 3 at Turning Stone.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I thought English Turn was quite nice and TPC Woodlands was pretty good although not the best in the Houston area, Waterwood was my favourite, I was very dissapointed in Champions GC too. Torrey Pines has been improved since I was there in maybe 89, is it really bad? Swwms quite nice and varied. There are several PGA tour courses that look a bit bland and samey, Firestone is one but maybe it plays great. Here in GB they quite often play the European tour events on courses often not rated in the first 100. The big events are ofcourse more controlled by Corporatey things.

[David Stamm]

Adrian, after playing Torrey Pines many, many times before the redo I guess I'm sort of biased, but I don't like the changes and don't think the course is any better than it was before and in some ways it's worse. Rees did what was asked by the USGA to make it tougher, but as we all know, that doesn't always make it better. Where the Torrey before would require some decision making and thoughtfulness at times, the Torrey now is a "bash it as far as you can and then go find it and bash it again." Jones did bring the canyons into play more, but the bunkering style to me looks like Jones was taking a page from Trump National to the north. Sadly, there is very little Bell, jr. left there. BTW, some friends of mine who are club pros played there one day from the Open tee's and not one of them broke 85 and 2 of them shot in the 90's. And these guys are good players.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian, after playing Torrey Pines many, many times before the redo I guess I'm sort of biased, but I don't like the changes and don't think the course is any better than it was before and in some ways it's worse. Rees did what was asked by the USGA to make it tougher, but as we all know, that doesn't always make it better. Where the Torrey before would require some decision making and thoughtfulness at times, the Torrey now is a "bash it as far as you can and then go find it and bash it again." Jones did bring the canyons into play more, but the bunkering style to me looks like Jones was taking a page from Trump National to the north. Sadly, there is very little Bell, jr. left there. BTW, some friends of mine who are club pros played there one day from the Open tee's and not one of them broke 85 and 2 of them shot in the 90's. And these guys are good players.

David, I never played it just walked a few holes looked quite quirky and almost had an English feel, it was just before a tournament maybe Jan 90 or so, it looked more like the course needed some makeup rather than a makeover. fundamentally it looked a nice golf course, which sounds about your take on it too.

[Jay Flemma]

Up untill this year I would have said En-Joie in Binghamton NY home of the BC Open. Suprising no other votes for it.

Jay - You think Atunyote is that bad?? I'll agree that the greens could use some more movement but the routing is pretty solid and the shot values.

Now is it worth what the $$ the Oneida's are charging?/ No even close, but IMHO it was a better course than I expected and #2 of the 3 at Turning Stone.

The routing is lackluster...5,9,and 12 are good but what else there is exciting?

Is there a good horizontal sweep to the holes to provide good angles and airspace? No  Is there ANY undulation at all in the fairway? NO.  The bunkering?  please...boring.  Any intesting holes like redans, biarittzes, cape holes, etc? No...not one single template hole from NGLA.

Too long, too much water, too overpriced, too bad they built it, too bad its got a backwater of the backwater section of the tour schedule, too bad its casino is second rate  and too bad we'll be mired in the intolerable stench of the crowing from the old buzzard roost that said...AND I QUOTE..."we're every bit as good as Kiawah, Whistling Straits, and Pinehurst", etc.  They even trade off Augusta's good name by saying..."That's Augusta white sand in the bunkers" likes that's some sort of trademark or brand.

Oh, but they have waterfalls, a stained glass window in the clubhouse and a magic gate to keep the riffraff away, so they have that going for them.

I even heard from people that they wanted to shopping at the clubhouse and were turned away...no tee time, no clubhouse access.

Hiawatha and Conkin and 90 minutes away and 1/4 the cost and twice the golf courser.  Heck, I'd play greystone near rochester  first.

[B_Smith]

Up untill this year I would have said En-Joie in Binghamton NY home of the BC Open. Suprising no other votes for it.

Jay - You think Atunyote is that bad?? I'll agree that the greens could use some more movement but the routing is pretty solid and the shot values.

Now is it worth what the $$ the Oneida's are charging?/ No even close, but IMHO it was a better course than I expected and #2 of the 3 at Turning Stone.

The routing is lackluster...5,9,and 12 are good but what else there is exciting?

Is there a good horizontal sweep to the holes to provide good angles and airspace? No  Is there ANY undulation at all in the fairway? NO.  The bunkering?  please...boring.  Any intesting holes like redans, biarittzes, cape holes, etc? No...not one single template hole from NGLA.

Too long, too much water, too overpriced, too bad they built it, too bad its got a backwater of the backwater section of the tour schedule, too bad its casino is second rate  and too bad we'll be mired in the intolerable stench of the crowing from the old buzzard roost that said...AND I QUOTE..."we're every bit as good as Kiawah, Whistling Straits, and Pinehurst", etc.  They even trade off Augusta's good name by saying..."That's Augusta white sand in the bunkers" likes that's some sort of trademark or brand.

Oh, but they have waterfalls, a stained glass window in the clubhouse and a magic gate to keep the riffraff away, so they have that going for them.

I even heard from people that they wanted to shopping at the clubhouse and were turned away...no tee time, no clubhouse access.

Hiawatha and Conkin and 90 minutes away and 1/4 the cost and twice the golf courser.  Heck, I'd play greystone near rochester  first.

I don't get out of Ohio or Kentucky for that matter very often.. But I'm very much a fan of my Cincinnati Raynor course and can't figure out why you write that this course in upstate NY should have template holes from NGLA?  I love Raynor and don't mind if an architect throws in a punchbowl or a redan once in a while on boring land but why would YOU expect Tom Fazio of all people to build replica holes?  Do you know who he is in the industry?  I just went to your website, obviously you are a marketing yourself a journalist, I can't believe one would be upset that Fazio would build anything but what he did.  I'm not saying your review is incorrect because I've played some mundane Fazio courses (I do love Victoria National though which is in my neighborhood) but perhaps you should think a little before you compare him to Seth or CB..

[Jay Flemma]

Its not a comparison to raynor or CBD, but many great architects use those holes.  Atunyote is a bland as bland gets.  Why is it so lackluster?  because the greens especially are flat and huge. There is no character.

My other problem is the shameful way in which they trade off the good name of other golf courses anbd treat other tournaments bad luck (The Booz Allen, The 84 Lumber and the BC Open) with light-fingered contempt.  plus shoulod the tour be taking casino money? No.

[Steve Lang]

 

Tiger B..

In case you hadn't noticed.. The TPC at The Woodlands hasn't hosted the PGA event in Houston since 2002, when VJ won..  privately the pros were lamenting leaving there for Redstone,.. exchanging a shot making course for a bomber's course.. the first year at Redstone on the Jacobsen/Hardy course they were "smiling for interviews", and a little less the 2nd year.. this year on the new Rees Jones (Toms) Tournament course, major grumblings on the walks (marches) between various holes and having to learn a new course, rather than any strking impressions on the architecture

Redstone has proven that length does not keep scores from going low..

Lastly, the HGA doesn't seem brag anymore about their charity donation and attendance levels .. seems things have turned a little sour after their sell-out to Redstone..

p.s. the WCC membership loves having the ol TPC as part of our stable of courses.. 13-18 remain a real treat when the pressure is on..

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tiger B..

In case you hadn't noticed.. The TPC at The Woodlands hasn't hosted the PGA event in Houston since 2002, when VJ won..  privately the pros were lamenting leaving there for Redstone,.. exchanging a shot making course for a bomber's course.. the first year at Redstone on the Jacobsen/Hardy course they were "smiling for interviews", and a little less the 2nd year.. this year on the new Rees Jones (Toms) Tournament course, major grumblings on the walks (marches) between various holes and having to learn a new course, rather than any strking impressions on the architecture

Redstone has proven that length does not keep scores from going low..

Lastly, the HGA doesn't seem brag anymore about their charity donation and attendance levels .. seems things have turned a little sour after their sell-out to Redstone..

p.s. the WCC membership loves having the ol TPC as part of our stable of courses.. 13-18 remain a real treat when the pressure is on..

I only played it the once but I can remember quite a lot of holes which is usual the +++ sign. The first green was sat in an island of sand, and for me playing off the back tees the course was too tough, i would probably have got on better 20 yards per hole shorter. The finish as you say was good with a par 5 guarded with water a real bendy 15th, narrow green par 3 16th, and ofcouse the shortish 17th and real tough 18th where I carved my 3 wood 2nd about 50 yards east just to finish with a nice six!

[Steve Lang]

 

Adrian,  sorry bout your luck there at 18!  was anyone watching from the hill?  

[Jay Flemma]

Strantz, engh, and doak do use such green features all the time.  Engh has lots of punchbowls, doak uses redans, biarritzes, etc...strantz has lots of holes with raynor-esque green settings...even Nicklaus and C&C used a Lion's Mouth out in the sand hills.  

My problem isnt with fazio...I like his work at world woods and Ventana and I even have fun at Pine Hill and Pelican Hill.  As for Cupp, you're right, I think he should use more such holes.  As for fill in the blank games, I have neither time nor inclination...go see Yale, CC Charleston, Fisher's, NGLA, Old White, etc.  Why do you think everybody is so excited about the new bandon design Old Macdonald?  Its a chance for the public to see a great encyclopaedia of excellent GCA...and on a helluva property.

Atunyote charges more than world woods, TPC MB, Pine Hill, ventana canyon, pelican hill, and the same as Barton creek, but does not have the same design features or natural setting.  Its over priced and under designed.  I wish he'd give us more of what we saw at world woods and pronghorn looks really good too.  While most people I know from GCA aren't fans of Ventana, I think there are some sweet things there and the cacti I saw ther...1700 y/o saguaros and dead specimen cacti were a trasdcendental setting for golf.  Atunyote's setting is lackluster farmland a cople miles from Utica.  Utica is OK, but its not AZ, CA, the rugged rocky hills of TX or WW.

Again..the problem is with Atunyote comparing themselves favorably to the true lions american golf after being open for one year and trading off their good name whan they have nothing in common with them except that the resorts...not the same course mind you, but the resort,s held the club pro championship.  Th other problem is the light fingered contempt they showed to other tournaments in throwing as much money as they could at the tour to get a tournament.

[Jerry Kluger]

Does anyone really believe that the PGA tour cares very much about the quality of the courses that are played?  They are simply looking to venues where they can pack in the most people and turn the greatest profit at the same time that the sponsors are wondering what they are getting for their money.  They own Avenel yet they cannot make it financially attractive enough to find a sponsor.  The course is surrounded by houses so there is not much that they can do to make the course better.  Fact is, the tournament has suffered from bad dates and the top players won't come for bad dates, heck, the top players won't even come to the best dates.  Who cares which are the worst courses if there is no connection between quality course and quality field.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Quite charitable Brad, especially from someone who hasn't seen the place in 15 years.  Opinions are like granite it takes a geologic era to change them - besides you just ask Tom Boswell.  

I thought the course was dreadful for the first 10-15 years.  The past 5 years (due to the talented and devoted staff) I've now grown to think it's become somewhat of a little gem - but what do I know.  JC

[Jason Topp]

Does Firestone deserve to be on this list?  

From drawings and TV it looks incredibly boring.

[Doug Wright]

R.I.P., TPC Heron Bay

--Anyone who can calculate the real estate value of the property, please make an offer.

I'll second (or third) TPC @ Heron Bay. I played it in a pro-am several years back, and the golf course (McCumber) was plain awful. Boring routing, even more boring flat greens. RIP indeed.

Sounds like Atunyote @ Turning Stone is the Heron Bay of the North. I looked into it last year during a visit to central NY, was shocked   at the green fees, and passed. Hearing the reports on here I'm glad I did...

PS, TPC @ Eagle Trace (Hills), which hosted the much-traveled Honda Classic back in the 90s, was even worse than Heron Bay. A tricked up goofy joke of a golf course that the pros really hated, and I did too.

[Dan Boerger]

Jay - I've played "the Casino" course, as many of the locals call it, and agree it's not much of a value. Pleasant enough, but I can think of 5 -10 courses within 70 miles that I would rather play. You're right on target, IMO, with expansive flat greens and a forced feel of water. I would, not, however be critical of the lack of NGLA look alike holes, since the NGLA is on a pretty incredible plot of land.

I wonder where they will get the crowds from?

[Jay Flemma]

Mr. Smith, thanks for your kind as measured response.  I'm swamped all day today, and dont have time to write reams.  My website breaks down the courses I will list here well.  There is a search engine and there's individual architects categories as well.

Strantz - Royal New Kent, then Tobacco Road.  If you can get to Caledonia, do it.  Heck, jump pn a plane and pay 320 to MIke Whityaker and come to tyhe Dixie Cup this weekend and you'll see the incredible Bulls Bay - Pete dye told Mike styrantz before he died that he got the idea for the bunkering from whistling from Bulls Bay - a great tribute.  As for raynor-esque, I like 14 at RNK with its plateau green.  For Strantzified redans, ...abnd these have heavy modifications, unlike say 15 at Apache...try 3, 7 at RNK, 3 at TB and 12 at BB.  The play on these is usually BACK...which space is hidden form the player's view...but a great architectural trick noine the less.

Engh.  Fly into Denver and play Fossil Trace and Red hawk Ridge, then make your way to Lakota canyon and Redlands Mesa.  You'll see lots of punchbowls and also what he calls scotch or irish holes.   The Irish holes play through dunes, the scotch holes have "random" pot bunkers - 8 at Fossil, 8 at lakota.  Redlands greatest strength is the routing.

Doak Biarritz, I forget the hole at Apache, but there is one there and then 7 at Rawls course.

All of these courses are a fraction of the cost of Atunyote.  Atunyote has one cross hazard...one...the drive on ten...everything else is 80s.  Its all doctrine oif framing...spoon-fed golf.

Dan, the crowds for the "BC Open" were small to be sure.  Its a thinly populated area.  Syracuse and utica and rochester will come...maybe Albany.

[B_Smith]

Jay-

I'm pleased about you contributing the Jim Engh stuff.  I'll check out your website further for more details.  I certainly love discovering an architect I've never seen before.  As per Strantz, I've played World Woods Pine Barrens and believe he did a lot of the shaping or so I was told.  Also, I've been to True Blue and Caledonia as some of my Ohio drinking buddies dragged me down to Myrtle Beach and a 15 hour drive--it was long and overnight so I played horribly like a 18 handicap.  True Blue didnt inspire me with its waste areas, I felt it over the top but I never thought I was at a Raynor course.. Caledonia on the other hand was refreshing and a wonderful place.

[Mike Hoak]

TPC at Heron Bay is dreadful.  I played there several years ago based solely on it being a tour course.  I have never been more disappointed with any course I have ever played.  The course is dead flat and tragically boring.  The bunkering is also completely overdone.

Closer to home, I also have to blast Avenel.  Going from Avenel to Congressional last year was like going from Fran Drescher to Pamela Anderson.  I do not see how the renovation is going to fix any of the underlying routing problems Avenel.  It's like putting lipstick on a pig--and darn expensive lipstick at that.

[Jay Flemma]

Mr. Smith...MIke Strantz never saw world woods, let alone worked or did any shaping.  He told me that when I interviewed him the first time in 2003.  Mike said he always wanted to see it, but sadly never got the chance.  No, there is not much raynor at TB, but it was groundbreaking in its day and boldly shaped.  A couple years later he dialed down a few things, most notably 3 green.

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