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Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 02:12:10 PM »
"The firmer and faster a golf course gets, the more enjoyable the game, for everyone."

I still don't see how your argument holds water when it is based on what people "enjoy."  What else do millions upon millions of people enjoy?  Has adequate market research been done on the subject for anyone to say, with any authority, what people really want from their playing conditions?

It is clear that the bulk of this panel enjoys firm and fast, but this is hardly a representative sample of the golfing public.  Asking this panel is like asking devout Christians about Jesus?  The results are skewed, on account of their vested interest in the subject.  Ask the casual church-goer the same question.  Or ask a Muslim.  Answers will vary.

And so too will answers to this issue.  I can all but assure you, there is no right answer.  
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2006, 02:35:15 PM »
Steve,

This thread and your point seem to kinda be getting off track.

Nobody is telling you, or anyone, for that matter, what is enjoyable.  If you get off on target golf; firing high and soft irons into mushy greens, more power to ya.  

But I will always feel that those who prefer this type of golf are missing out on how much more the game has to offer.

Lastly, I think the majority of the golfing public has little experience playing on fast and firm conditions.  Thus, if you haven't been exposed to something how can you realistically have a preference of one thing over another?

You wouldn't be aware of all your options, yet. :-\

I find it kinda shocking that you don't want to consider the immense problems associated with watering the hell out of golf turf.  On some level this issue isn't about playing preferences, it is about the earth's ability to continue watering what are essentially playgrounds for the wealthy.


 

« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 02:39:34 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

tonyt

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2006, 05:25:19 PM »
Steve, it is simple.

When nature provides plenty of rain, the course plays soft. When it is hot and dry, the course plays firmly. Watering must also take place for turf health on these prepared grounds we enjoy. But other than that, to heavily water a course to allow receptive greens in a very dry season is no less unnatural than putting through a windmill in minigolf.

The seasons are to be celebrated. Not negated by force.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2006, 10:53:33 PM »

"The firmer and faster a golf course gets, the more enjoyable the game, for everyone."

I still don't see how your argument holds water when it is based on what people "enjoy."  What else do millions upon millions of people enjoy?  Has adequate market research been done on the subject for anyone to say, with any authority, what people really want from their playing conditions?

That's part of the problem that you don't see.
The golf course is holding too much water.

Do you really believe that golfers enjoy approaching a ball they've just hit, to find mud all over it ?

Do you think they enjoy finding their ball six inches or less from its pitch mark ?

Do you think they enjoy getting NO ROLL ?

You don't need market research to answer any of the above questions, you just need common sense.


It is clear that the bulk of this panel enjoys firm and fast, but this is hardly a representative sample of the golfing public.

Steve, could you name me five individuals who enjoy "SOFT & LUSH" conditions ?

Conditions where dirt/mud are constantly on your ball.
Conditions where no roll is possible.
Conditions where you can't play bump and run.
Conditions where you can't punch shots short of the target with the intent of having them end up at the target.
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Asking this panel is like asking devout Christians about Jesus?  


That's a flawed analogy.
It predisposes the answer vis a vis a core ideology regarding  education/indoctrination in learning about the subject.
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The results are skewed, on account of their vested interest in the subject.  color=green]

I think it's more related to their educational/indoctrinational experience rather than any vested interest.
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Ask the casual church-goer the same question.  
Or ask a Muslim.  Answers will vary.

Answers will vary because the ideologies vary.

This isn't an issue of ideologies, it's an issue of philosophies.
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And so too will answers to this issue.  

I disagree.
You, apparently, hold your belief as incontravertable.
Your beliefs appear to be rooted in an ideology.

Most other's beliefs on the subject seem to be philosophical.
They feel that, conditions permitting, firm and fast produces a superior playing surface and variety in the play of the game.

Your conditions of play allow for but one approach, an aerial approach, with a number of significant negatives included as additional baggage.
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I can all but assure you, there is no right answer.  

Most would disagree with you, and feel that there is a right answer, and that it has to do with presenting an optimal playing surface.  One that will allow for a variety of methods by which the game can be played.

Your ideology is to dictate one way, one set of conditions,
"Soft & Lush"

"Soft & Lush" conditions detract from the playing experience in a number of ways, including, but not limited to, dictating play and confining the play of the game to the aerial method.

Could you answer any of the questions I previously asked you as well as the questions posed in this post ?

Thanks
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Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2006, 01:12:38 PM »
Patrick,

I do not hold my position to be incontravertable (though I will say that the tone of many of your posts suggests that your own beliefs are often beyond reproach).  But, my original point was not that firm and fast is wrong or that soft and lush is right, but that there is little value in declaring a victor.  Let all courses be maintained as they choose to be, no judgements.  The people will decide from there where they want to play.

Having said that, however, I will address one additional point that has been alluded to by yourself and others that is inconsistent with your philosophy.  Many of you claim that nature alone will contribute to firm and fast conditions.  But this is not entirely true.  Firm and fast is not simply a function of water; more than this, it is also inter-related with one important (and decidedly unnatural) cultural practice: mowing.  Now, I don't know where you are from or where you play your golf, but I am assuming that the grass is not trimmed by sheep and rabbits, correct?  Every time a mower drives on a fairway or walks on a green, the firmness and speed of that playing surface is altered, and let us not even get into rolling (a practice which occurs at more than a few courses (think of the excess of Oakmont, for example), and virtually every week on the professional tours).  Is this natural any longer?  Where is nature's control?  So, until the mowing stops, its seems silly to also find fault with irrigation.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2006, 01:30:58 PM »
A repeat of my earlier post on this thread, could you address these two questions? Thanks.

Steve,

I think golf is a better game when the surface is prepared firm and fast because of the increased importance of mental preparedness for each shot. Can you name one situation on a soft and slow golf course that increases the mental demands when compared to firm and fast? Do you disagree that the mental component of golf is a valuable and important aspect of the game?

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2006, 01:31:54 PM »
I just have to make some comments directed back to
T. Doak's comments about Portland.  

Ok so if it's November through March firm and fast are an impossibility.  But it does not rain in the Pacific Northwest from July through September. the remainder of the months are shoulder seasons where you get what you get.  

Maintenance, if done right, should give a Pacific Northwest course three different distinct playing conditions.  Wet, semi wet and bone dry.  

How many of you get to play your courses in three separate and distinct conditions?  

The problem arises when maintenance practices don't make any attempt to as comedian Lewis Black would say "Go with the F*** flow."  Superintendents who either are in fear of losing their jobs or who don't play golf just pour the water to their course, keep it green and keep their jobs.

I heard a story this morning of a local superintendent who managed to dry out a local old course at the behest of his single digit green chair. He was then was subjected to a 30 slide power point presentation by the Board on how the course had some dry and bare areas.  I will bet my bottom dollar that if this guy keeps his job, next year the fairways will not be dry but emerald green and lush.  As a sidelight to this story, I wonder where the single digit was when this guy was being eviscerated by the Board?

Ok now I'm ranting......Tom we can dry things out in the Pacific NW to achieve fast, firm and fair but the education level of most is abysmal.  No wonder a superintendent takes the safe route!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 01:36:06 PM by W.H. Cosgrove »

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2006, 04:59:50 PM »
JES II:

With a slight qualifier, I will answer your question with this: any match play situation.  

Unless the concept has changed since last I checked, the only goal in match play is to beat your opponent.  Whether you play against Tiger at the Old Course, or against a Sherpa friend at a makeshift course through the Khumbu Icefall on Mt. Everest, all you need to do is win holes and win the match.  Match play is like a chess match against the other guy, and therein lies the mental component

Admittedly, there might be an added layer if interest if the conditions are a certain way, but for match play, the conditions are virtually irrelevant, because you are not playing the course, per se.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2006, 05:56:43 PM »

I do not hold my position to be incontravertable (though I will say that the tone of many of your posts suggests that your own beliefs are often beyond reproach).  But, my original point was not that firm and fast is wrong or that soft and lush is right, but that there is little value in declaring a victor.  Let all courses be maintained as they choose to be, no judgements.  The people will decide from there where they want to play.

Steve,

You were doing OK until your next to last sentence.

Courses shouldn't be maintained as they choose, they should be maintained as they were intended to be maintained by their creators, the architects who designed them.


Having said that, however, I will address one additional point that has been alluded to by yourself and others that is inconsistent with your philosophy.  Many of you claim that nature alone will contribute to firm and fast conditions.  But this is not entirely true.  Firm and fast is not simply a function of water; more than this, it is also inter-related with one important (and decidedly unnatural) cultural practice: mowing.  Now, I don't know where you are from or where you play your golf, but I am assuming that the grass is not trimmed by sheep and rabbits, correct?  Every time a mower drives on a fairway or walks on a green, the firmness and speed of that playing surface is altered, and let us not even get into rolling (a practice which occurs at more than a few courses (think of the excess of Oakmont, for example), and virtually every week on the professional tours).  Is this natural any longer?  Where is nature's control?  So, until the mowing stops, its seems silly to also find fault with irrigation.

This is such an outlandish statement and position that I don't know where to start.

Nature's control or influence was referenced in the context of climate and/or soil conditions and terrain.

Now you want to include mowing grass ?  ?  ?

If the grass wasn't mowed, the cows would be grazing and you wouldn't be playing golf.

A golf course is a 'SPECIALLY PREPARED FIELD OF PLAY, including its surfaces.

"Firm" has nothing to do with whether the grass is mowed to
3/8ths, 4/8ths, 5/8ths or 6/8ths.  "Firm" is a function of moisture.  "Fast" is also a function of moisture, although grass height is a factor.

But, this issue isn't about keeping fairway grass at 2 inches and diminishing roll, it's about golf courses in the context of today's maintainance standards.

You championed Soft & Lush conditions.

Conditions where there are no options of play other than aerial.

Could  you answer the questions I posed in several previous threads ?

If you choose not to, I will accept your refusal as a concession that your position is flawed and that you recognize that fact , despite not wanting to admit it.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2006, 06:00:19 PM »
But Steve, don't you see that a firm golf course would create the ultimate chess game. It takes the same physical challenge you describe of trying to just beat your opponent on each hole and exponentially enhances it because of the consequences after the ball hits the ground. Those consequences are non-existent on real soft lush golf courses. It is simply moving pawns up and down the board. Get the ball bouncing and the lights come on.

You say any match play situation is enhanced by soft, slow golf courses, how would the 17th hole at The Old Course seem if you need to make a 4 to win the hole to go from 1 down to even and you are at about 200 yards from the green? How much more intense would that decision and shot be in firm conditions versus soft conditions? You want to make a 4 to win the hole but you can't make a 6 and lose the match. A 4 sure is much easier when it's soft, and 6 sure is easier when its firm. Think about some of the matches you have played, and think about the key points of the match. How would a change of conditions have effected the different scenarios?

tonyt

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2006, 06:28:50 PM »
Steve,

Compare the objects that are struck in the games of badminton and golf.

The golf ball being round, it invokes the obvious original notion that on each and every shot, the damn thing is supposed to bounce and roll some.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 06:30:25 PM by Tony Titheridge »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2006, 06:38:31 PM »
JES II,

I must have missed the part where Steve indicated that any match play situation would be enhanced by "Soft & Lush" conditions.

Nothing could be further from the truth, for when those conditions exist, only a purely aerial game can be employed.
The golfers options are significantly diminished

Imagine playing a Redan hole with "Soft & Lush" conditions.

Those conditions would defeat and render meaningless the great majority of architectural features meant to interface with the golfer.

That Steve doesn't see that is incredible.

Can you imagine playing PV under "Soft & Lush" conditions, his wild notion of the ideal playing surface ?
It wouldn't be much fun.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2006, 06:51:55 PM »
Steve Burrows,

To clarify something on maintaining golf courses F&F, noone is saying that a golf course in South Florida should be maintained F&F during the summer.

The general belief is, that where F&F conditions can be achieved, there should be an effort to achieve them.

And, that Mother Nature often dictates what is realistic and attainable.

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2006, 07:10:48 PM »
I am under the impression that all of us (myself included), have taken to reading post after post and, after doing so, we're responding only to those issues which challenge our stated position, as opposed to a rational discourse where the entirety of an arguement is read and understood, where points are not overlooked or misinterpreted.  A rational discussion results in certain concessions to the other side, and we have none of this.  This discussion, however, is overwhelmed by emotion, rather than reason.  

Steve
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

tonyt

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2006, 08:29:26 PM »
Steve,

Is there anything I've said which comes across to you in that manner? Not promoting the challenging of another's posts, just that the blanket replies don't tend to encourage such discussion. There would be more discussion if you and I could delve into each other's posts more. To avoid as much leaves the topic in that shallow topsoil of emotion.

Either way, I think both of us could understand better the driving principles of the other constructively.

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2006, 09:12:54 PM »
Tony,

The challenge of other thoughts and ideas is the very premise of this discussion forum.  It exists (I believe) to share knowledge about the game of golf.  But often, the experience and knowledge of participants is dismissed, I would imagine, because few are aware of the credentials of the rest of the group.  I will say that though I am not as credentialed as others on this site, my experience in the industry is diverse and my words are valid.  But, in my brief stint so far on this site, I've seen this kind of dismissal happen to others, so believe me when I say it is not just me being upset because MY stance on a topic is unfavored, and I certainly have no grudge against you or any other particpant on the forum.  

As far as this thread goes, I have been challenged to answer questions that have been posed, or concede in shame.  Now, I'll answer the questions if it is still desired to keep the conversation going, but these types of ultimatums are a far cry from a rational, Socratic discourse.  But, such a discourse is difficult on-line.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2006, 09:16:36 PM »

I am under the impression that all of us (myself included), have taken to reading post after post and, after doing so, we're responding only to those issues which challenge our stated position,

Then why haven't you answered the many questions I posed that challenge your stated position ?
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as opposed to a rational discourse where the entirety of an arguement is read and understood, where points are not overlooked or misinterpreted.  

A rational discussion results in certain concessions to the other side, and we have none of this.  This discussion, however, is overwhelmed by emotion, rather than reason.  


I posed reasoned questions which you avoided addressing because they undermine and defeat your argument/position.
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Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2006, 11:20:37 PM »
Patrick,

I just drank my glass of hemlock, so here are answers to most of the questions you have posed:

I can't think of ONE benefit for keeping a golf course soft and lush, can you?
   -A club exists, in part, to provide happiness for its members.  More than a few of these members world-wide associate golf with a brilliant green color, for better or for worse.  One might suggest that their happiness would increase with changed playing conditions (a shift to firm and fast), but it is entirely that their happiness stops solely with superficial appearances.  Club members are going to demand certain playing conditions to meet their needs, or even just their desires, and if a majority of the club feels the same way (which seems to be the case at many clubs), the course will be maintained to that level.  Moreover, it is the job of the superintendent to serve the needs of the membership, and so he keeps the course consistent with their edicts.  The benefit, then, becomes the happiness of the members, however philosophically flawed that happiness may be in the minds of some.

Why do you keep returning to extremes?
   -This whole conversation is about extremes.  None of us seem to be able to get away from it.  

Why wouldn't you want to strive for those playing conditions where they are attainable ?
Why settle for substandard, overwatered conditions ?
   -These two questions are related, and so the answer will be likewise.  Who sets the standards?  It sounds like you are.  What is the standard, and how can one be below it?  As you have mentioned time and time again, there is no standard, only a flowing, liquid ideal that varies from course to course, from region to region, and so forth.  But again, I’ll go back to the notion of the (perhaps) flawed wishes of members and/or the public who play a given golf course.  Some people are happy just to have the day off work and be able to spend time outdoors with their friends.  They will play a horribly designed, horribly conditioned course simply because it is close to their home.  If a course meets their needs of simply being open on Saturdays, then maybe that is enough.  Many people are not very demanding of the quality of their golf; their “standards” are lower than others; they just want to play the game.  I beg you not to try to refute this.  Let them keep their dignity.          

Do you really believe that golfers enjoy approaching a ball they've just hit, to find mud all over it?  Do you think they enjoy finding their ball six inches or less from its pitch mark?  Do you think they enjoy getting NO ROLL?
        -Again, related questions.  I don’t know what other golfers appreciate, only what I appreciate.  I will say, however, that it seems as though good players ideally like total control over a struck ball, when such conditions are attainable (to paraphrase an expression of yours).  How many times do you think Tiger has, even when playing a course that meets your firm and fast ideal, run a shot over the ground for an excessive period when an aerial approach is possible?  The answer is, probably, not as much.  When he hits the ball in the air, the shot that he hits will have a better chance of coming off as he planned; the ground, as you also have admitted, often bounces the ball in various directions.  But Tiger is who he is because the ball does what he wants more often than the other guy, and that is often (though not always) the case because he has better control over the ball when he strikes it and it goes to the air.  He practices so much so that he is more aware of the variables, and, as with most things, the more information you have, the better decision you can make and the cleaner that you can execute that decision.    

Steve, could you name me five individuals who enjoy "SOFT & LUSH" conditions?
   -This is just a bad question.  It can't go anywhere constructive.  Any answer to this one would probably be dismissed quicker than I could write it, so I will confindently let it go.

Now you want to include mowing grass?
   -Have you ever worked on the grounds crew of golf course that hosts a PGA Tour event?  A USGA event?  How about on the grounds crew of any golf course?  Well, I have, and I do.  Double cutting and double rolling, though perhaps not the norm, is not unusual.  You say that firmness and speed are both functions of moisture, or, more accurately, the lack thereof.  I will concede that, but add that all this activity on the surface of the green serves to compact the soil (effectively dispersing the moisture) and making the surface play much firmer and faster than if nothing had been done.  The green has then become, quite unnaturally, firm and fast.  Further, if you will admit that, as a general rule, the lower the cut, the faster and further a ball will roll (a green will roll further than a fairway), then mowing does have an effect on firm and fast.  So, yes, I will include mowing grass.    
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2006, 11:49:03 PM »


I can't think of ONE benefit for keeping a golf course soft and lush, can you?

That's why I asked the question.
And, no, I can't think of a benefit to keeping it S&L
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-A club exists, in part, to provide happiness for its members.  More than a few of these members world-wide associate golf with a brilliant green color, for better or for worse.  
Agreed[/b


One might suggest that their happiness would increase with changed playing conditions (a shift to firm and fast), but it is entirely that their happiness stops solely with superficial appearances.  

That's possible.
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Club members are going to demand certain playing conditions to meet their needs, or even just their desires, and if a majority of the club feels the same way (which seems to be the case at many clubs), the course will be maintained to that level.  

Agreed, but, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from F&F
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Moreover, it is the job of the superintendent to serve the needs of the membership, and so he keeps the course consistent with their edicts.  The benefit, then, becomes the happiness of the members, however philosophically flawed that happiness may be in the minds of some.

Agreed, but, again, playability would be improved by moving toward F&F.
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Why do you keep returning to extremes?

I don't.   I've clearly expressed viable alternatives where conditions dictate same.
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   -This whole conversation is about extremes.  None of us seem to be able to get away from it.  

Not really.  You insist on S&L and myself and others have stated that playability would be enhanced by moving toward F&F where Mother Nature and conditions permit.
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Why wouldn't you want to strive for those playing conditions where they are attainable ?
Why settle for substandard, overwatered conditions ?

-These two questions are related, and so the answer will be likewise.  Who sets the standards?  It sounds like you are.  What is the standard, and how can one be below it?  As you have mentioned time and time again, there is no standard, only a flowing, liquid ideal that varies from course to course, from region to region, and so forth.  

You didn't answer either question.
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But again, I’ll go back to the notion of the (perhaps) flawed wishes of members and/or the public who play a given golf course.  Some people are happy just to have the day off work and be able to spend time outdoors with their friends.  They will play a horribly designed, horribly conditioned course simply because it is close to their home.  If a course meets their needs of simply being open on Saturdays, then maybe that is enough.  Many people are not very demanding of the quality of their golf; their “standards” are lower than others; they just want to play the game.  I beg you not to try to refute this.  Let them keep their dignity.  

That's not the issue and you know it.

And, even if I accepted your premise, why not let them play a better golf course and enjoy an even more interesting game brought about by F&F conditions ?
[/color]        

Do you really believe that golfers enjoy approaching a ball they've just hit, to find mud all over it?  Do you think they enjoy finding their ball six inches or less from its pitch mark?  Do you think they enjoy getting NO ROLL?
       
-Again, related questions.  I don’t know what other golfers appreciate, only what I appreciate.  I will say, however, that it seems as though good players ideally like total control over a struck ball, when such conditions are attainable (to paraphrase an expression of yours).  How many times do you think Tiger has, even when playing a course that meets your firm and fast ideal, run a shot over the ground for an excessive period when an aerial approach is possible?  
Again, that's not the issue.
With S&L conditions he can't even begin to think of that option.  He has only one method of play, dictated by S&L.
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The answer is, probably, not as much.  When he hits the ball in the air, the shot that he hits will have a better chance of coming off as he planned; the ground, as you also have admitted, often bounces the ball in various directions.  But Tiger is who he is because the ball does what he wants more often than the other guy, and that is often (though not always) the case because he has better control over the ball when he strikes it and it goes to the air.  He practices so much so that he is more aware of the variables, and, as with most things, the more information you have, the better decision you can make and the cleaner that you can execute that decision.

Again, that's not the issue.
Everyone recognizes that the aerial game may be prefered, however, with S&L there is no other option.

And, since when is the discussion couched in the context of Tiger's game ?  Would you say he fits the example of the average golfer you cited above ?
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Steve, could you name me five individuals who enjoy "SOFT & LUSH" conditions?
   
-This is just a bad question.  It can't go anywhere constructive.  Any answer to this one would probably be dismissed quicker than I could write it, so I will confindently let it go.

I understand you inability to muster support for your position ;D
[/color]

Now you want to include mowing grass?

 -Have you ever worked on the grounds crew of golf course that hosts a PGA Tour event?  A USGA event?  How about on the grounds crew of any golf course?  Well, I have, and I do.  Double cutting and double rolling, though perhaps not the norm, is not unusual.  You say that firmness and speed are both functions of moisture, or, more accurately, the lack thereof.  I will concede that,

Thanks
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but add that all this activity on the surface of the green serves to compact the soil (effectively dispersing the moisture) and making the surface play much firmer and faster than if nothing had been done.  The green has then become, quite unnaturally, firm and fast.  Further, if you will admit that, as a general rule, the lower the cut, the faster and further a ball will roll (a green will roll further than a fairway), then mowing does have an effect on firm and fast.  So, yes, I will include mowing grass.

You're confusing the issues.
How are F&F fairways being adversely affected ?

You're also confusing super fast greens with F&F greens.

You're now dealing in extremes.

Reduce the water on the golf course and you'll produce a better product that doesn't need the excessive maintainance practices you mention, double cutting and rolling.
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Richard Phinney

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Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2006, 08:07:17 AM »
I certainly think this continues to be an important issue.  Even on classic links courses there ARE decisions to be made on how firm and fast to keep the course, now that most have expensive irrigation systems. And persectives on this issue have changed, even in the last 20 years, even in Britain and Ireland.  

I'm a F&F advocate, but I think we have to be a little careful in using history to buttress our arguments....the ball didn't roll much in the 19th century.

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2006, 08:21:37 AM »
I think golf is a better game when the surface is prepared firm and fast because of the increased importance of mental preparedness for each shot. Can you name one situation on a soft and slow golf course that increases the mental demands when compared to firm and fast? Do you disagree that the mental component of golf is a valuable and important aspect of the game?

I'm surprised that nobody has chased up this question - JES, have you considered that perhaps not every golfer wants a game which imposes increasing demands upon his or her game? Not every golfer wants to be tested and challenged the way you seem to want to be! Many people find golf quite difficult enough when played in lush, receptive conditions...I somehow suspect that a great majority of mid-to-high handicap golfers wouldn't mind firmer fairways (to get more roll), but not at the expense of their soft greens.

Cheers,
Darren

Dan_Lucas

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Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2006, 11:07:48 AM »
I have seen all sides of this discussion. A large portion of the golfing population doesn't care that F/F conditions are where golf came from. They want their ball to stop close to where it landed because that is how/where they learned to play golf. They have no experience with F/F so it is "unfair". I once talked to a visitor here at Kingsley post round. He was complaining about taking a big number on #2 (big surprise). I consolingly replied "That green is awful tough to hit." His response was "I hit the damn thing three times, it was so f*#@! hard the ball wouldn't stay on." The greens were very fair that day, he just wasn't familiar with that kind of golf. I have seen a lot of that over the years. Steve is right in this respect.

My argument for F/F is on the side of the grass and the environment. Lush and green are achieved with two things, fertilizer and water. Excess fert. and water lead to much higher potential for leachates in the groundwater. This industry does not need another problem here.

It also means a shorter, less vigorous root system. If all the water and nutrients the plant needs to survive are provided in the top two inches of soil on a daily basis, what incentive does the plant have to send out new/deeper roots. This works great till periods of stress hit. Then the turf checks out (quickly) because it doesn't have the toughness and reserves that a good deep root system provides.

Lush conditions also mean a deeper wet thatch layer which besides absorbing shots is a perfect breeding ground for disease. More disease = more pesticides + more water = more potential leaching. It also means much higher maintenance budgets.

Not all golf courses can or should play like British Open courses, but most can and should be drier and leaner than they are. The grass would be much healthier and less expensive to maintain.

Adam Clayman

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Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2006, 11:19:34 AM »
What golfers want should have zero bearing on what they get.

Look at courses where the customers bitching have influenced the powers that be to alter their top 100 course. How does a course make it into the national rankings, because of the design and maintenance meld, then instruct their super to change it so pussy whipped non-thinking lazy bitchers can have their balls stop on the greens?

 It's a dychotomy of American proportions and the saddest evolution one could think of.

Darren, Sully's comments on having to think more about one's shot, has little to do with the difficulty of said shot. It just requires more awareness and thought. Appeasing those who don't want to have to think isn't golf, it's bowling.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2006, 12:07:56 PM »
Appeasing those who don't want to have to think isn't golf, it's bowling.

No offense, Adam, but isn't that an awfully patronising attitude to take? First of all, golf on a lush golf course is still golf; second, proper course management requires thought no matter where you're playing, in that a smart golfer will always assess risk vs. reward and his own abilities before choosing any shot to play. Even that relatively simple calculation is beyond most golfers most of the time under lush conditions. And to be perfectly honest, how is the desire to test the brainpower of the average golfer compatible with the desire to speed up play? When I play tricky F&F courses, especially here in Scotland, I very rarely feel as though I have enough time to cycle through all of the calculations I'd like to make before I need to hit my shot, simply because the pace of play is so fast in relative terms. Isn't being unable to calculate all of the variables of a complex F&F shot in a reasonable amount of time and simply hitting a shot for the sake of hitting it actually worse than playing a lush course and being able to make the proper calculations within a reasonable timeframe?

Again, I really like F&F conditions when they're not super-extreme, and as part of the natural wet-dry-wet-dry cycle throughout the course of the year. But posts like Dan's, about why lush conditions are bad for the grass itself, are far more convincing to me than those complaining about a pre-conceived notion of ideal F&F conditions which has *never* been more than only one of many ways that golf has been played down the centuries.

Cheers,
Darren

Dan_Lucas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "F" Words
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2006, 01:11:13 PM »
"What golfers want should have zero bearing on what they get."

All good for you to say unless you own a golf course.

If your competitor down the road is maintained lush and wet so Joe Bogey's 5 iron approaches splat down and stay put, Joe Bogey will play there instead of your place. Even if your greens putt much better, he would much rather stake that 5 iron than admire the perfect roll on his 40' birdie putt at your place.

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