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Bill_Ryzewski

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2006, 08:39:01 PM »
Palmer did more to bring the game to the common man than anyone I can think of.

IMHO he should have a free pass at ANY public course in America.

Period.

Bill_Ryzewski

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2006, 08:44:02 PM »
AND it's ok with me if he thinks that way!

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2006, 08:44:09 PM »
What if he said he was there to "rate the course" for XYZ Magazine?  Then would it be acceptable for a legend such as Arnold Palmer to be comped??

(Sorry guys, couldn't resist.)

Ken

Bill_Ryzewski

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2006, 08:47:32 PM »
Nice.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2006, 09:24:10 PM »
What did Arnold Palmer do for the game of golf?

He played.  End of story.

Is Tiger Woods "doing anything for golf"?  All he does is play.  (He does have a wonderful foundation that is doing things outside of golf, which I admire.)  Palmer's a wonderful person.  Even met him once.  

Manute Bol and Hakeem Olajuwon are doing things for the world from their position of stature as basketball players.  Michael Jordan allowed an entire league to market itself through him like Earvin Johnson and Larry Bird before him.  

But what did Arnold Palmer "do for golf" that he wasn't doing for himself?

Billy Joe Patton volunteered for the USGA for years.  What did Palmer do?  I always assumed he was paid to chair the membership drive.

Bill_Ryzewski

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2006, 09:51:19 PM »
John,

We're not talking charity here, that's a different story.

What we're talking about is justifying American athletic proffesionalism.

Arnold did just that and elevated the game.

Bill






JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2006, 10:13:15 PM »
What did Arnold Palmer do for the game of golf?

He played.  End of story.

 Michael Jordan allowed an entire league to market itself through him like Earvin Johnson and Larry Bird before him.  

But what did Arnold Palmer "do for golf" that he wasn't doing for himself?


How is Jordan different from Palmer in this marketing factor?

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2006, 10:45:04 PM »
What did Arnold Palmer do for the game of golf?

He played.  End of story.

Is Tiger Woods "doing anything for golf"?  All he does is play.  (He does have a wonderful foundation that is doing things outside of golf, which I admire.)  Palmer's a wonderful person.  Even met him once.  

Manute Bol and Hakeem Olajuwon are doing things for the world from their position of stature as basketball players.  Michael Jordan allowed an entire league to market itself through him like Earvin Johnson and Larry Bird before him.  

But what did Arnold Palmer "do for golf" that he wasn't doing for himself?

Billy Joe Patton volunteered for the USGA for years.  What did Palmer do?  I always assumed he was paid to chair the membership drive.


John,

What did Palmer do??  When you turn the television on each weekend to watch a PGA Tour event, thank Arnold Palmer.  He brought golf to the masses, as was mentioned before.  He brought popularity to a game previously thought of as a sport only for the affluent.  He completely changed how the sport and the competitors were viewed and treated.

You mentioned Jordan had an entire league on his back.  Palmer had an entire sport on his.  The business of golf, for better or worse, would not exist today as we know it if not for Arnold Palmer's impact.  I'd comp his green fees and get him to sign a can of Penzoil in the process.

Ken

Robert Thompson

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Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2006, 11:33:05 PM »
What did Arnold Palmer do for the game of golf?

He played.  End of story.


Is it just me, or did something fly up John Conley's ass and not come out?

What did Arnold Palmer do? There's being contrarian and there's being ignorant. I'll let you figure out for yourself what part of the equation John has crossed over to....
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2006, 12:18:35 AM »
Yeah Robert, something like that.  Contrarian?  To what.  Take anyone under 30 and they'll be unaware of his background.  He's famous... but for what?

His span of dominance in Majors is no greater than Watson's.  Excuse me, but being the popular player at the top of his game at the advent of televised golf sounds like a stroke of luck.  Couldn't we be talking about Fred Couples?

He is a graceful superstar, a real man of the people.  But when nobody can point to anything he did "for the game" it seems hollow.  

Comp his golf, fine.  Please enlighten me as to what he did for the game.  He did more for kids with the Arnold Palmer Children's Hospital than he did for golf.

My mom asked me about the Grateful Dead this week.  She couldn't remember why I gave her a CD over a decade ago.  (She told me she loved the music played on TV during the Garcia tributes upon his death.)  I told her about their benevolence; it really is astounding.

The Grateful Dead did more for music than Arnold Palmer did for golf.  I'll go so far as to say the Dead did as much for basketball as Palmer did for golf.

Guess what, HE DID IT FOR HIMSELF.  These actions may have had benefits for the world of golf, but HE DID IT FOR HIMSELF, and not the world of golf.  Contrast that to a Dead check.  They don't do that for themselves.

To people over 50 Palmer is untouchable, but a few questions about the reverence don't turn up a whole lot.  He played golf on TV and came from behind and was the people's choice for a hero prior to Fat Jack.  I get it.

I never understood that appeal until I caddied for a guy that played with him in the L.A. Open.  He said something, not specifically about Palmer, that shed light on the advent of televised golf.

Riddle me this, did Tony Hawk do as much for skateboarding as Arnold Palmer did for golf.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2006, 12:57:09 AM »
Palmer did more to bring the game to the common man than anyone I can think of.

IMHO he should have a free pass at ANY public course in America.

Period.

I don't have any stats to back it up, but if we had to put money on it and someone was going to get an accurate count for us, I'd put money on Tiger's headcount being higher than Arnie's when it comes to pure number of people taking up the game simply because of one person.

I wouldn't have cared if they gave him a free pass at Bandon.  I don't think that would have been any more newsworthy than the fact that they charged him.  I wonder if it was Mr. Palmer, one of his companions, or a random witness that determined this story needed national airtime.  Therein lies the true story.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2006, 08:13:21 AM »
John: I guess the Grateful Dead, and its heroin addled guitarist/singer did wonders for the music industry. Of course it is a completely different debate, but I find it hard to find much influence with the Dead at all, especially beyond the band's zombie-like following.

As for Palmer, he took professional golf into the mainstream, bringing interest to a sport that had largely been the arena of the wealthy and blue blood. He took it from the country clubs and into middle America. I guess it must be hard for you to imagine now, but that's what happened -- and Palmer was almost solely responsible for it.

From there, purses in golf increased as interest rose, sponsors became involved in the game, largely as part of Palmer's work in developing IMG (for better or worse). How often have you heard a current PGA Tour pro say they show up at Bay Hill just because of "Mr. Palmer." And just because Palmer's actions may have served his better interests doesn't mean those same actions didn't have ramifications well beyond his personal sphere.

Was Palmer perfect? Of course not and time may not be fully kind to his legacy. However, to deny his influence on taking the game of professional golf to a larger audience, and in turn bringing the game to millions of people, is a bit naive.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

John Kavanaugh

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2006, 08:27:26 AM »
Yesterday I have to read how John Conley is saving the game by flying across the country to play a now famous architects courses...for free no less...and today he says Palmer did nothing and should pay.  How can a magazine read and respected by every club professional in the country be associated with this guy...where are the standards.

wsmorrison

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2006, 08:56:18 AM »
My father-in-law was a major league baseball player and he didn't buy a car until a few years before his death.  He always wanted a Mercedes so he finally got one.  He thought about purchasing one, but why bother when dealerships were falling over themselves to give him some darn great cars.  When he got in the Hall of Fame he decided to treat himself to a Mercedes.  I don't think he ever felt like he did anything to deserve the gifts 30 years after he stopped playing, but who was he to argue with free cars?  Honestly, it probably made the dealers happier to give him one and hang out with him, if only briefly.

While playing, my father-in-law won a batting title (two altogether).  His team gave him a nice new Caddilac convertible.  He was driving it back to Nebraska in the off season and it died on the highway.  He left it there.  50 years later at some reunion gathering at the stadium, somebody actually tracked it down.  The team had it fixed up and gave it to him again.  This time he gave it to his oldest son.

Another gift story and then I'll get back to Palmer.  My father--n-law was MVP for the original Mets team.  The Mets gave him a boat.  He went to the marina to take it out and it had sunk.  He left it there!  He hated to lose and that team drove him nuts.  He quit baseball after that season despite being close to 3000 hits and finishing the season with a +.300 average.  Quitting was very unpopular with the Commissioner and he let my father-in-law know it in no uncertain terms.

What did Palmer do for golf?

Palmer went over to the UK to play in the Open when even if you won, the expenses on such a trip wiped away all winnings.  He raised the profile of the Open to American audiences and injected a breath of life into it.

As great a champion as he was, he has a style of play and charisma that brought non-golfers to golf events and to take up the sport.  His working-class win at the Amateur changed the way the general populace looked at golf.  He brought untold millions of merchandising revenue to the professional golfer ranks....way beyond Munsingwear and Amana.  Television embraced golf because of Arnold Palmer and every professional in the business of golf today can attribute golf's current popularity to a point of origin; Arnold Palmer.

He may have been the right guy in the right place at the right time, but he is an integral part of the equation.  

Palmers charitable work has been extensive, especially for hospital fund raisings.  I think he gives back plenty.  A saint?  By no means.  But an enormously popular guy for many great reasons.

Now, for a guy who has made the most or nearly the most money of any athlete for many decades, who cares if he pays or not?  The guy has a billion dollars for gosh sakes!  If I were standing behind the counter, I wouldn't charge him simply to honor him.  But to each his own.  
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 09:02:43 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2006, 11:20:18 AM »
Bandon Dunes wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Palmer. This is a classless act and I will continue to think The Ocean Course is better because of it. Haven't played Bandon, but what does that matter? ;)

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2006, 11:27:07 AM »
I can't imagine charging Arnold Palmer for a round of golf . . .
completely absurd if you ask me.

-Ted

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2006, 11:31:11 AM »
A Dallas based independent writer I know not only got his rounds comped at Bandon, but also his room, and food.  He told me this and I can't think a reason why he would lie.  If I was a betting man, I'd say that this Arnie story is just that.  If true, shame on Bandon.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2006, 11:48:36 AM »
This story started in the Telegraph in the U.K. Since there's a direct quote from Palmer in the story, I suspect it is legitimate.

Arnie is a famous face among sporting personalities in America, except, it seems, at the Bandon Dunes resort in Oregon. He arrived to have a look at the course which recently hosted the Curtis Cup and, on deciding to play, was asked: "How would you like to pay for this?" One credit card imprint later and Palmer, 77, remarked wryly to friends: "That's the first time I've paid to play golf since I was 17."
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2006, 01:11:34 PM »
John: I guess the Grateful Dead, and its heroin addled guitarist/singer did wonders for the music industry. Of course it is a completely different debate, but I find it hard to find much influence with the Dead at all, especially beyond the band's zombie-like following.

Your comment is ignorant.  I said nothing for the music industry, I was commenting on their contributions to the art of music.  Mostly financial to those toiling in less obscure areas since a number of them are classically trained.

The contributions of Lesh and Weir don't really have anything to do with the tragic addiction of Garcia, but if you want to make it about that go ahead.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2006, 01:19:01 PM »
Yesterday I have to read how John Conley is saving the game by flying across the country to play a now famous architects courses...for free no less...and today he says Palmer did nothing and should pay.  

Let's see, that is one sentence with three falsehoods.  Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit for you.

I don't care one bit how many places comp Arnold Palmer, you, or anyone else.  I am - still - wondering what he did for the game that goes beyond what many others have done.

His contributions outside of golf are more impressive to me.  His playing record is a touch above Casper's and on par with Watson's.  His popularity with his generation was unrivaled until Tiger came along.  But I don't see him taking up causes like Ali.

In spewing venom, you and others still haven't pinpointed what he has done for golf.  I get it, he's popular.  I get it, he appealed to a broader base of fans that his contemporaries in the same way as Daly today.

I have no idea what really happened at Bandon Dunes, but it is possible that a counter clerk wouldn't even know who he is.  Seems odd to passionate golfers over 45, but many of those same people can't pick Tony Hawk out of a police lineup and he's one of the five most popular athletes to pre-teens.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2006, 01:19:39 PM »
John: Tragic addiction? He was junkie. A smack addict. A dope fiend.

And he was a talent for a few years in the late 1960s. Not a major talent though. In the history of music in the 20th century, the Dead are but a small footnote. Apparently you are a big fan. Good for you. But, of course, that has little to do with the subject at hand, just as it did nothing to do with it the first time you brought it up.

I think there is little debate that Palmer did more for his sport than The Dead did for music (besides being just a silly debate, but you started it...) Now if you were offering up Presley, or Dylan or Lennon, I'd say you had a point....
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2006, 01:27:27 PM »
I'm not a big Grateful Dead fan.  A fan, yes, but not a big one.  It is clear you revere Arnold Palmer.  The question I ask to anyone is, "why?"

I get the answer that he was the most popular golfer when they televised 4 holes in the 60s.  

I don't get it when you or someone else says he did a lot for golf.  I'll agree with you when you can tell me what he did.  I can't even get an answer from you, just a slanderous attack that I can't know what I'm talking about.

As far as music, you are talking about the influence of Presley (a singer, mind you), Bob freakin' Dylan, and John Lennon on the body of popular music that followed.  They did things that have an influence, yes.  Beyond playing their music, the Grateful Dead have made contributions for the express purpose of supporting artists in areas where they don't have a chance to make money.  Big difference.

Elvis "gave back"?  No.

Lennon did a lot to save the world, but Elvis was ultimately a drug addicted recluse.

Fine if you don't want to use music as an example.  Think of any person that gives back to a cause and plug them in to the scenario.  Then compare them to Arnold Palmer.  I don't see him doing a lot to give back.  I'll quickly recant if you can tell me what I'm missing.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2006, 03:34:30 PM »
John: I guess you didn't read what Wayne had to say.

RT
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2006, 04:48:25 PM »

wsmorrison

Re:Pay up, Arnie!!
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2006, 04:52:48 PM »
Robert,

Jerry Garcia along with David Grisman helped popularize many traditional bluegrass, folk and country songs.  They made several excellent albums.  They were both vocalists with Garcia on guitar and Grisman on mandoline.

I also go back far enough to remember those 5 hour marathon Dead concerts.  I was and remain a fan of the Grateful Dead...stoned or straight, they were great artists in my smokey mind back then and my clearer one today.

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