[AndrewB]

I was also out at the Crump Cup watching and had a wonderful time.  The Golf Association of Philadelphia's website has a snippet of history on its member clubs, including Pine Valley.  This quote attributed to Robert Trent Jones caught my attention:

".... To my way of thinking, it [Pine Valley]... possesses more classic holes than any other course in the world—ten of the eighteen. Of the remaining holes, five are outstanding, two are good, and one, the twelfth, is ordinary, which, at Pine Valley, is tantamount to being a misfit." [1]

Do others who are familiar with the course feel that the 12th is the weakest hole as well?  If so, why?  If not, which holes would you consider weaker?

It would be great if responses didn't focus solely on the trees that have grown in on the left hand side as mentioned above and in previous threads, though obviously that has an affect on the merits of the hole.

[Steve Lapper]

I was also out at the Crump Cup watching and had a wonderful time.  The Golf Association of Philadelphia's website has a snippet of history on its member clubs, including Pine Valley.  This quote attributed to Robert Trent Jones caught my attention:

".... To my way of thinking, it [Pine Valley]... possesses more classic holes than any other course in the world—ten of the eighteen. Of the remaining holes, five are outstanding, two are good, and one, the twelfth, is ordinary, which, at Pine Valley, is tantamount to being a misfit." [1]

Do others who are familiar with the course feel that the 12th is the weakest hole as well?  If so, why?  If not, which holes would you consider weaker?

It would be great if responses didn't focus solely on the trees that have grown in on the left hand side as mentioned above and in previous threads, though obviously that has an affect on the merits of the hole.

Andrew,

   While there are some who might argue the 12th is the lesser of the collection of great holes on that property, one can simply consider the source of pulled quote and look at his record of building and judging "great" holes.

   Leaving out the encroaching tree issues, the 12th is a marvelous little hole that demands precision and restraint to make a good score. Of greater importance, it fits wonderfully into the pace and tempo of the routing as it precedes the collection of "bigger" holes to follow.

[JESII]

I can see the viewpoint of those that make this statement (and RTJ is not the only one to have made it) because of a wide flat fairway with only minimal penalty for missing to the right. That fact alone makes it out of character with the rest of the course, I'd say. But for me, the greens are such a huge component of the course and its attraction, and the green at #12 is as great as any out there.

This green does it differently than #8 in terms of short par 4's that are anything but a pushover. The green is much larger and therefore does not emote the same intimidation as #8, but it certainly makes it difficult to select a shot that will finish near the hole and when you leave yourself 30 feet, it's awful easy to three putt.

There's an old saying about Pine Valley that goes something like 'if you think you can improve PV, which hole would you take out and which would you put in?' There just are not many options to improve the course.

[mike_malone]

 Chris,

    I was in the back of #10 when you hit that shot. It needed two more rolls back and it was in. I was rooting for you because I first saw you on #9 in the bunker after your tee shot. Your third was very difficult because it wasn't just the distance but also the direction of that shot. I thought you might have killed your caddie if you had a weapon, but you hung in there.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

    I was in the back of #10 when you hit that shot. It needed two more rolls back and it was in. I was rooting for you because I first saw you on #9 in the bunker after your tee shot. Your third was very difficult because it wasn't just the distance but also the direction of that shot. I thought you might have killed your caddie if you had a weapon, but you hung in there.

 

Malone,

You were there??   So was I, on both 9 and 10.  

I had no idea that was THE Chris Brauner!!  

Amazing how sometimes you don't connnect a name.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how I missed YOU!  

I must have been looking at the bunkering instead.  

[wsmorrison]

The 12th at Pine Valley makes a golfer think on the tee.  What club to hit (there are several to choose from).  Unfortunately, what it doesn't have now, but will have as the clearing progresses, is temptation.  The tree clearing is integral to the greatness of the hole and increases the mental challenge of the hole.  Maybe the physical challenge of the tee shot isn't at the same high degree of other holes at Pine Valley, but it surely was designed as a great mental test off the tee.

The approach shot is not as easy as it appears.  The approach is from a fairway that flows seemlessly onto the green is made more difficult for the lack of depth perception.  A green that sits above the fairway, even slightly, is somehow easier to get a feel for--at least for me anyway, those that are at fairway level are much harder, such as those at Manufacturers.

And, as Jim said earlier and knows so much better than most, the green is a tricky one that requires a precise approach to have a sure shot at a one or two putt.  Three putts are very easy to come by; true of all the PVGC greens.

[mike_malone]

 Mike,

   You were there with your wife, right? You can't do good gcaing with your wife along unless she is a wacko like us. The only exception is Laura Herrmann; she's one of us.

[Mike_Cirba]

What Wayne said.

But, I'd add that it's tough for anyone to judge the quality of the hole in its present form from a purely architectural standpoint because about 30% of the hole that Crump designed is presently lost in the woods.

I do hope to hear someday that the club has decided to remove all of the trees right out to the ledge to restore it to the way it played originally.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

   You were there with your wife, right? You can't do good gcaing with your wife along unless she is a wacko like us. The only exception is Laura Herrmann; she's one of us.

Mayday,

You would have been proud of me.  I took her through the whole course, holes 1 through 18, and probably talked to her about the course and architecture and maintenance practices, and what used to be and what should be and what shouldn't be and on and on and on than YOU do!!!

She suspected I was nuts before;  now she knows I'm certifiably bonkers.

You should have come over and said hello, but you probably saw that scowl on my face looking at the bunker front-right of #9.  

[mike_malone]

 I didn't see you; you mentioned her name in one of your  posts on this topic.

   I am proud of you and I do go on and on. Just another character defect that I have.




     It was great to watch the people's reactions to the course. You know they are thinking "So, this is the #1 course in the world. I wonder what makes it so?"


    When I was in the back of #3 there were three very good tee shots to a very far back/center pin. The first two flew directly at the hole. One hit about ten feet right and rolled to five feet; the second was a few feet left and sat down. The third just made the right side of the green and rolled twenty feet down towards the hole. This shot got the most applause from the fans, but it was the worst of the three in my mind. That told me something about the makeup of the crowd.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Mike,

   You were there with your wife, right? You can't do good gcaing with your wife along unless she is a wacko like us. The only exception is Laura Herrmann; she's one of us.

Mayday,

You would have been proud of me.  I took her through the whole course, holes 1 through 18, and probably talked to her about the course and architecture and maintenance practices, and what used to be and what should be and what shouldn't be and on and on and on than YOU do!!!

She suspected I was nuts before;  now she knows I'm certifiably bonkers.

You should have come over and said hello, but you probably saw that scowl on my face looking at the bunker front-right of #9.  

Add my non-golfing wife to the mix.

She walked PV with me twice (once in pouring rain), treating it as a wonderful hike, she spent countless hours in clubhouses around the US and the world waiting for me while I hacked away (she says Irish Coffee at the Ballybunion Clubhouse is great - she had a few over 4 hours... ), and she made a 300 km detour when I decided I HAD to play TOC on a whim.

The morning rain scared us away this year from the Crump Cup, but she was ready to go for the third time...

[Mike_Cirba]

Mayday,

A character defect we both share, I assure you.  I usually just let you have the right of way.  

Voytek,

Bless her heart.   Mine plays a little, but she says "golf's YOUR thing", and she is supportive of my obsession.  I think the clinical term is "enabler".  

[Dan Boerger]

I think 12 at PV is a great fit and adds to the flow of the round. As Wayne so accurately states, it's not as easy as it looks (and reminds me of #10 in Merion in this same respect). Also, it's nice to get some visual relief and a bit of a breather before #13 and #14, where accuracy is more critical IMO.

[Eric Franzen]

You would have been proud of me.  I took her through the whole course, holes 1 through 18, and probably talked to her about the course and architecture and maintenance practices, and what used to be and what should be and what shouldn't be and on and on and on than YOU do!!!

It guess that it will take her another day or two to change the locks of your house...  

[Mike_Cirba]

You would have been proud of me.  I took her through the whole course, holes 1 through 18, and probably talked to her about the course and architecture and maintenance practices, and what used to be and what should be and what shouldn't be and on and on and on than YOU do!!!

It guess that it will take her another day or two to change the locks of your house...  

Eric,

The good news is that she now understands the strategy, concept, and architectural history of every hole at Pine Valley, so at least she's got that going for her.  

As a related corollary;

Any woman who will willingly join you in visually inspecting the innards of something you've told her is called the "Devil's Asshole" is a keeper...for life.

[Gordon Oneil]

   When I was in the back of #3 there were three very good tee shots to a very far back/center pin. The first two flew directly at the hole. One hit about ten feet right and rolled to five feet; the second was a few feet left and sat down. The third just made the right side of the green and rolled twenty feet down towards the hole. This shot got the most applause from the fans, but it was the worst of the three in my mind. That told me something about the makeup of the crowd.

Obviously I didn't see the quality of the three golf shots.  You do describe each of them as "very good tee shots to a very far back/center pin."
Are you saying that they were all well struck iron shots?  Because if they were, it does speak volumes about the makeup of the crowd as knowledgeable fans of golf and Pine Valley.  There are several approach shots on the course where the best play/strategy is to use the contours of the greens to your advantage (especially if the greens are firm, though I understand there was quite a bit of rain last week).  If the greens are as firm and fast as they usually are at the Crump Cup, it is impossible to get a shot close to any center or left pin without playing your ball well to the right so it can feed down to the hole.  The members of Pine Valley, and similarly, the members of Oakmont, appreciate a player who plays their course the way it was designed to be played.  Though certainly there are multiple options and strategies to be considered in nearly every situation.  
Too bad you missed the front left pin at #3.  I was in a foursome one day with that very pin and the total score for the four of us was 8.  I didn't make the ace but had one of the twos.
I was lucky enough to play there much more than anyone deserves in the 1990s and never had a bad day.  All nitpicking aside, it is the best golf course in the world as well as the best golfing experience to be found, bar none.

[mike_malone]

 Gordon,

    With a downhill shot that front pin on #3 is very difficult.

    The shot that I described as the worst was fading toward missing the green entirely and got lucky. I thought the other two were struck better.


      I was watching the people who by their attire appeared to be experiencing the course the only way they ever will. They seemed to be having fun. Maybe they just did not have as good an angle as I did from directly in back of the green.

[SPDB]

Mayday - You kidding me? I would guess that the front left pin on #3 probably collects 2x the number of aces of all of the other pin positions combined.

[mike_malone]

 SPDB,

    I guess I'm speaking from my personal weakness that I don't hit the ball very high and need some green to allow for roll.

[Tom Dunne]

Garth McGimpsey absolutely stiffed it on #3 on Sunday. Of course, he then missed about a 4-footer for birdie, but what a shot to get there!

[JESII]

Interestingly, they had the hole on top of or beyond the saddle every day. I guess that supports SPDB's opinion.

[AndrewB]

Thanks for the comments on the 12th hole, everyone.  I liked it a lot and thought it presented interesting options from the tee, a challenging approach that could be played multiple ways (and that factors into the tee shot choice), and a difficult, narrow green that slopes away from you more than it appears when walking up to it from the front (one really sees the slope a lot more when standing behind the green looking back).  I hadn't thought of the difficulty caused by it being level with the fairway, and I also hadn't thought of the option of going for the green from the tee (perhaps that says a lot about the trees on the left, or perhaps it says a lot about how short I hit the ball).

In any event, if one hole was to be considered "ordinary" out there, I would have selected the 14th myself.  I'd be just as interested to hear everyone's thoughts on that hole and perhaps explanations of what I'm missing.

[SPDB]

Given the appropriate odds, I'd almost be willing to wager that one of Tom Paul's myriad holes-in-one came at the 3d

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

He's had 17 more than my 0, but I'm not sure any were at Pine Valley.  I'm sure he'll weigh in after the Lesley Cup and a little trip we have planned.

[JSlonis]

redanman,

Good photo of #12.  If the club ever decided to clear that left area from the fairway to the green all the way back to uncover the ridge and the original Crump bunkers, #12 could become one of the most striking visuals on the golf course.  It would be interesting to see what that would do strategically to that hole.  Unfortunately, I know all too well that the path to temptation at Pine Valley usually doesn't lead to great results.

They have already done some nice clearing around the tee area on #12 which opened up some filtered views toward #15 green and #16 tee.  It was a really good look.

As an aside...this year for the Crump Cup, the golf course was in the best condition I ever remember seeing it in.

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