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Brent Hutto

Re:Using the earth
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2006, 10:08:45 AM »
Walking the fairways at Princes as a spectator at last month's Amateur Championship, they had extensive scalping damage to the humpy-bumpy portions of several fairways. It seemed to me the scalped places tended to be spots where it was almost impossible for a ball to come to rest given how dry and fast the turf was playing. Unsightly, though. But honestly, if your ball ended up on a scalped spot I can't see how the lie would be any tougher than the wonderfully tight lies in the greener parts of the fairway.

The fairway contours at Royal St. George's next door were just as extreme but it seemed to me the scale was just enough larger that they wouldn't be subject to scalping as easily (plus maybe their mower operators were more careful). By that I mean that the individual contours were larger in relation to the size of a mower deck and therefore less likely to be scalped. Actually, a lot of the fairway contours at RsG took the form of ridges rather than somewhat hemispherical bumps.

One thing I saw at Royal St. George's were shots from the fairway catching the top of a hump, much to the surprise of the player. On the fourteenth hole during one of the stroke-play rounds two of the players in the threesome I was following had 2-iron shots clip a hump 15-20 yards in front of where the shot was struck. Both balls managed to clear the cross hazard (lucky) but after it happened on the second shot in a row both players were really scratching their heads. I don't think there are many US courses or inland English courses with fairway contours big enough to influence a shot by a good player from a level lie 20 yards away.

Jordan Wall

Re:Using the earth
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2006, 12:59:17 PM »
Jordan:  That par-3 7th hole had two bunkers, way short right and front left.  You just don't remember them because you made birdie ... and now you've exposed yourself as one of those players who likes the holes he played best.  Some penance for you!


Ha!
Not true.

The hole I liked the worst was #14, and I eagled that one.
I still like #7 the best out of the par threes[/color].
My favorite hole on the course was #6.  A GREAT drive can carry the bunker and cut the corner to gain an advantage.  A weak drive forcing a longer iron into the green has to contend with a fronting bunker that makes running approaches difficult.  If your tee shot really sucked then you have to lay up, yet to gain the best angle of attack to the green you have to contend with the bunker and a big drop off ridge to the left of the fairway.


Bob,

Mackenzie is easily my favorite architect.
I admittedly I havent played any of his courses (I know people are going to bash me for saying he is my fav. because of this) but I he has built many great holes which involve a lot of contouring, or 'using the earth'.
One of the reasons I like Mackenzie s much is that his courses always seem to look natural.
I can only imagine he really means it.
 :)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2006, 12:59:35 PM by Jordan Wall »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Using the earth
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2006, 01:10:41 PM »
Mackenzie is easily my favorite architect.
I admittedly I havent played any of his courses (I know people are going to bash me for saying he is my fav. because of this)

And they should.  Jordan, that's like me saying "H.S. Colt is my favorite architect."  Without playing his courses, I can't justifiably say that.  You may like what you've read and what you've seen in photos, but golf is about playing the game, and without playing any of MacKenzie's courses, you really don't know whether you like his work or not.  

Jordan Wall

Re:Using the earth
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2006, 01:29:41 PM »
Tim,

I cant really say much about any architect then.
I mean, say for Doak (who is awesome btw!!!!!!!!), I havent played much.
From what I can tell, AN, CPC, to name a couple, are amazing.
I study CPC as much as possible.
That makes it my fav.
You dont have to like, or agree with it.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Using the earth
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2006, 01:56:08 PM »
Tim,

I cant really say much about any architect then.
I mean, say for Doak (who is awesome btw!!!!!!!!), I havent played much.
From what I can tell, AN, CPC, to name a couple, are amazing.
I study CPC as much as possible.
That makes it my fav.
You dont have to like, or agree with it.

Well, maybe you can't say much about any architect then.  My comments have nothing to do with whether I like or agree with your choice of MacKenzie as your favorite architect.  It's just that you have little basis for saying that--photos of courses don't tell you how a course plays and that, to me, is how you judge a course.  Obviously, aesthetics matter but the ultimate question is whether the course is fun (encompassing interesting, challenging, etc.) to play.  You can't determine that by "studying" CPC.  Btw, you could do worse than to say that Doak is your favorite architect.

Scott Witter

Re:Using the earth
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2006, 02:42:54 PM »
Tom D.

I had heard about your extensive or shall I say your efforts to retain the natural and even enhance some of the more subtle contours at Sebonack.  Chris Munoz, who I believe was an asisstant super during much of construction had some insight to the methods taken, especially during clearing and your patience to carefully remove trees and other vegetation so as not to disturb the surrounding contours and character.  Naturally, having the sandy soils and decent existing slope will certainly help your cause.

Curious, do you think at the at time, now looking back, that Jack N. really believed in what he said or was he peforming just a bit after having heard you speak about and execute this approach to building?  I realize that he has obviously seen and experienced this characteristic overseas for years, but prior to Sebonack, I wouldn't have thought he would have even given it a second thought?

"I think Jim Lipe nearly fainted." Evidence making me think Jack never thought of the imperfections as something valuable here in the U.S. until Sebonack.

"The fairway contours at Royal St. George's next door were just as extreme but it seemed to me the scale was just enough larger that they wouldn't be subject to scalping as easily"  Brent, that is right...there is a point to which we can keep or create contours that can be maintained and be playable the way we want and the scale you recognized makes a big difference.  To me it is more about the combination of scale, proportioning and tie-in of the contour that makes it fit the eye and the maintenence as well.  Once again and evidenced by Tom and the Renaissance Team, C & C with their talented crew and others who are control freaks or who understand that the details are simply that important, the time on site is critical to achieving the best results.


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