News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2006, 10:51:41 PM »
Mr. Rigo,

How did you play at FI?...

and did they give you a bagtag or memento?

Just curious.


Jeff Fortson


P.S.:  Riviera is better architecturally than LACC (North).  
#nowhitebelt

Wayne Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2006, 11:20:10 PM »
All I can say to all of you out there is that if you ever have any kind of chance to play FI, don't pass it up.  You will fall in love with the place.  The anticipation of getting there on the boat is half the fun, and the course is truly all world.  
   P.S.-  Raynor courses  are pretty hard to beat anywhere.

TEPaul

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2006, 11:23:40 PM »
There is no question of it---zero, zip, ziltch---this man Rigo must not be allowed to live. A man of his ilk should simply not be allowed to write a golf article like that and survive. That sort of rudeness is simply not done, My Dear! It is my distinct recommendation that it should be the moral responsibility of even the New London police to not allow people like this on the Fishers Island ferry! ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 11:26:26 PM by TEPaul »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2006, 12:27:43 AM »
Kevin,
Libelling is written, slandering is spoken.

PPS - What's more, you can't defame (libel or slander) a dead person or, believe it or not (and fortunately for this website), a golf course.

Perversely, the only thing that comes even remotely close to libel are the bombs being thrown at Joe Rigo.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 12:32:39 AM by SPDB »

Kevin Edwards

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2006, 07:24:39 AM »
Kevin,
Libelling is written, slandering is spoken.

PPS - What's more, you can't defame (libel or slander) a dead person or, believe it or not (and fortunately for this website), a golf course.

Perversely, the only thing that comes even remotely close to libel are the bombs being thrown at Joe Rigo.



To Peter Pittock/SPDB

Slander as defined by my dictionary (Original English Definitions or OED) is the utterance or dissemination of false statements or reports concerning a person or malicious misrepresentation of his actions in order to defame or injure him.

Call me Churchill but his blog DISSEMINATES information in a public ARENA in order to express Joe's views.. His views to me are not that friendly towards Mr. Raynor and this is not a court of law so to me it is slanderous (although according to you, you can't slander a dead man). Would you prefer for semantics if I changed this to "Besmirching Seth Raynor"??  Furthermore, a few Shakespearean jibes which I can't believe you take seriously and you think little Joe Rigo is the aggrieved party.  Boo Hoo.  I still find his Raynor comments vituperable and perhaps they can all be understood by dunces and as such suffer in their impediments to good golf architecture comprehension.  Let me just say Joe seems capable of defending himself.

Joe Rigo-  I give you credit for showing up here to defend your comments.  Obviously the lack of zeal you have for Fishers Island is disagreeable to me, but I'd like to see you truly answer Geoff Childs' questions.  What is the issue with Raynor's routing at FI and can you critique 6 really weak holes there.. ?

I'll be interested in debating you on the merits of the holes.

And you owe me for all of that traffic I sent your way!  :)

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 07:28:40 AM by Kevin Edwards »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2006, 07:56:35 AM »
My past trip to Fishers changed my view on the closing stretch at Fishers. Specifically, 16 may be my second favorite Short hole in the MacRaynor portfolio after National 6, and the 18th at Fishers is a very good Par 4.5, with maybe the best green at Fishers as a closer.

I can see Rigo's view towards holes such as 1, 2 and 15. They are not special, nor are they bad. However, Fishers remains special as a place and an experience.

PS. Joe, what cop? Never saw one on either visit.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2006, 07:59:29 AM »
     Could it be that Mr. Rigo is in cahootz with the club itself???

That he is one on "the take?"

That the club itself in fact hired him as their "publicist"
to help shoo away the masses?
 
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:56:55 AM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2006, 08:08:13 AM »
   
That the club itself in fact hired him as their "publisist"
to help shoo away the masses?
 


Dr,

I would be willing to kick in a few bucks to keep him going!!!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2006, 08:12:03 AM »

To Peter Pittock/SPDB

Slander as defined by my dictionary (Original English Definitions or OED) is the utterance or dissemination of false statements or reports concerning a person or malicious misrepresentation of his actions in order to defame or injure him.

Fine, let's use your (or the OED's) definition of slander. How are Joe Rigo's disseminations objectively false?

Read Bob Crosby's post; it's the only one that makes sense on this asinine thread.  

Quote
vituperable

???
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:17:02 AM by SPDB »

Kevin Edwards

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2006, 08:45:34 AM »

To Peter Pittock/SPDB

Slander as defined by my dictionary (Original English Definitions or OED) is the utterance or dissemination of false statements or reports concerning a person or malicious misrepresentation of his actions in order to defame or injure him.

Fine, let's use your (or the OED's) definition of slander. How are Joe Rigo's disseminations objectively false?

Read Bob Crosby's post; it's the only one that makes sense on this asinine thread.  

Quote
vituperable

???


Vituperable- that which deserves or merits censure, blame, disgrace and shame...

And you think those Shakespearean quips and jibes are personal attacks?

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2006, 09:43:37 AM »
Kevin - The whole thread is a personal attack. What else can it be, when there is only a battle of bare value judgments.

Your thread entitled "Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece" begins "this in my opinion is a travesty of poor research." What the hell does that mean? His research consisted of playing the course and offering his opinion of it?

How can you tell him he's wrong?

Kevin Edwards

Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2006, 10:01:16 AM »
SPDB-

He

1) Didnt give any evidence to buttress his views of the routing being weak and that Seth Raynor should have stayed laying pipe b/c he didnt know what he was doing

2) He didnt realize that Charles Banks finished the course and he was not some rank amateur.. he criticizes the bunkering and that they never were where Raynor wanted them.. Excuse me I think Charles Banks and his experience could channel Raynor okay.

3) He didnt talk about the course having no irrigation (ala Maidstone).  He calls it poorly maintaining the course and that the members are frugal.  To me that is a smack in the face of the super who has no control over the amount of water the course gets from mother nature and is a shot in the face to the members.  Maybe the members like playing brown, hard and fast conditions.

Furthermore read his review.. His architectual criticisms per hole are limited to the below:

The first hole is ruler straight with little character. The second, an attempt at a Redan hole is weak. In the interest of fairness, we didn't hate the entire course. The next four holes including the “Punchbowl” and “Biarritz” holes are quite good and interesting. Then the course falls apart. No character, dull and repetitive.

--- Boy that is a meaty argument.. Almost all of his review is pure hyberbole criticizing the snobby island residents, their cars, New London CT and the hoi polloi...


As I stated, I'm willing to talk hole by hole..

And who said anything about lynching Joe.. He sure lynched Raynor then by his review and some members.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 10:14:41 AM by Kevin Edwards »

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2006, 10:16:34 AM »


Mr. Rigo

Please read the "sacred cows" thread started by Tom Doak.  You will then be in a position to be politically correct in your posts on here and also to make your comments on your own personal website more palatable to the guys.  

An added benefit might be that you have a good chance of gaining access faster to the top 100 you have yet to play.


John Sabino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2006, 10:24:51 AM »
Jeff - I played two over my handicap so I think I see where you're going, my dislike wasn't based on playing poorly. And, no, no bag tag or momento.

Also, for the record, I did acknowledge that there are some very fine holes on the course, particularly the Biarritz hole. Would I discourage anyone from playing Fishers Island? Absolutely not, it is a unique experience in the world of golf and a pleasant summer's day. For my own personal taste, I think there are many superior courses in the region I would play over Fishers Island (Garden City, Maidstone, Bethpage Black, Shinnecock and NGLA just on Long Island alone). I personally wouldn't rush back. Not that I'm welcome after my blog anyway.

Kevin - as far as weak holes, one and two I have already mentioned but also the 10th hole I didn't like at all. Reminds me of the 2nd? hole at Gullane. I don't think an uphill hole without bunkering is that interesting. Certainly the 11th hole at Sand Hills is a much better executed version of how you can make a big uphill shot interesting. The 17th hole from what I remember is more or less a flat hole and I believe has no bunkers at all or maybe just a greenside bunker. It just isn't that imaginative. And I forget the hole number without the card in front of me, but among the last five holes from what I remember, a dogleg left, a narrow fairway on the right and then you hit your second shot over water left to the green. When I played, the hole was in such bad shape and covered in goose droppings that frankly it was hard to appreciate whether it was a good hole or not. Call that an unfair assessment on my part, but that's my impression.

Lastly, part of my impression is also formed by the feel of the club, the Island, the atmosphere. My personal blog is not Golfclubatlas, is not meant to be an architectural analysis. Others may not have experienced the state trooper or the other aspects of the club that give it an 'uptight' feel to me. It's also possible our host was trying to impress and some of the stories were apocryphal.

Or maybe TEPaul is right about me after all  ;)
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2006, 10:26:39 AM »
There is nothing on this thread that even remotely approaches gca libel/slander/whatever, although I am using a common sense definition, not a legal one, and Sean shows me all the time that they are not the same. :)

Joe Rigo posted some strong views on FI.

Kevin Edwards disagrees strongly with those views.

Both have offered support for their opinions, though imho Kevin has offered much more concrete proof for his rationale. Pretty typical gca discussion, if you ask me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2006, 10:36:32 AM »
Now Mr. Rigo is into sacred cow territory.  The 2nd at Gullane is a wonderful hole and great example of its type.  Sure its uphill, but there is a hill in the way with two other courses going up the same hill.  The second is an excellent solution.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2006, 10:39:07 AM »
although I am using a common sense definition, not a legal one, and Sean shows me all the time that they are not the same. :)

George - It's a pretty heavy burden I bear, but someone on this website has to use common sense.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2006, 10:50:22 AM »
Kevin - who cares if he didn't include any of the items you seem to think he was obligated to include, its his website and his reviews. Take it up with him on his website




Quote
And who said anything about lynching Joe.. He sure lynched Raynor then by his review and some members.


That's a good question; who did say anything about lynching joe?

Kevin Edwards

Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2006, 11:01:29 AM »
Jeff - I played two over my handicap so I think I see where you're going, my dislike wasn't based on playing poorly. And, no, no bag tag or momento.

Also, for the record, I did acknowledge that there are some very fine holes on the course, particularly the Biarritz hole. Would I discourage anyone from playing Fishers Island? Absolutely not, it is a unique experience in the world of golf and a pleasant summer's day. For my own personal taste, I think there are many superior courses in the region I would play over Fishers Island (Garden City, Maidstone, Bethpage Black, Shinnecock and NGLA just on Long Island alone). I personally wouldn't rush back. Not that I'm welcome after my blog anyway.

Kevin - as far as weak holes, one and two I have already mentioned but also the 10th hole I didn't like at all. Reminds me of the 2nd? hole at Gullane. I don't think an uphill hole without bunkering is that interesting. Certainly the 11th hole at Sand Hills is a much better executed version of how you can make a big uphill shot interesting. The 17th hole from what I remember is more or less a flat hole and I believe has no bunkers at all or maybe just a greenside bunker. It just isn't that imaginative. And I forget the hole number without the card in front of me, but among the last five holes from what I remember, a dogleg left, a narrow fairway on the right and then you hit your second shot over water left to the green. When I played, the hole was in such bad shape and covered in goose droppings that frankly it was hard to appreciate whether it was a good hole or not. Call that an unfair assessment on my part, but that's my impression.

Lastly, part of my impression is also formed by the feel of the club, the Island, the atmosphere. My personal blog is not Golfclubatlas, is not meant to be an architectural analysis. Others may not have experienced the state trooper or the other aspects of the club that give it an 'uptight' feel to me. It's also possible our host was trying to impress and some of the stories were apocryphal.

Or maybe TEPaul is right about me after all  ;)

Joe- appreciate your further thoughts and you taking the time to express your opinons, now I can retort.  You still havent talked about Raynor's lack of routing prowess or your thoughts on that.. I'd like to see it.


Okay to your criticisms, I'll use some of the pictures on the GCA review..

#10 weak?  I guess you don't like skyline greens which play havoc with gauging an approach.  When you factor in the false front of the hole, there is a ton of interest from a shot value perspective.  Can you feather in a low rider that bounces on?  Will the wind knock you down with a high dropper?  Little nerves to my stomach with how adventurous the shot looks..



So lets say you come up short.... Isnt this interesting with out bunkers and using the topography of the land/Raynor shaping..



Putter/wedge/lob wedge even, what shot do you want to hit if you miss..

When I played here last, I hit 9 iron to the flag one day and 4 iron the next, the vagaries of the wind make this a very strong hole with tons of options.  All in only 400 yards.  Raynor's routing skills add a lot of zest with the prevailing winds and topography. All without a single solitary bunker!  


Look at #11.. One of the best par 3s around. Sitting on a little peninsula jutting out into the water thanks to Raynor's routing skills.. Miss your shot and look how tiny this gentleman looks in the bunker.. You told us in your blog you were not a fan of the bunkering.. Hmmn, looks mighty tasty to me here



The 14th is the Cape hole which you didnt like given the goose droppings. Obviously nature can sometimes render a course hostage to the scatalogical rantings of some aviary species but lets look at the hole.  Strategic, not very sexy to the eye but look at the hole.  You have a very narrow driving corridor.  Drive close to the water and get the best angle and distance to the hole.  Bail out to the right and leave a very long approach with more water in play. Classic strategy. I took on the water and had a 7 iron, my playing partner didnt and hit 3 wood from the right side of the fairway but adjacent to me.

#17 features a tough drive with high grass left, a rolling fairway and a well bunkered green complex.. Again, not sexy but fairway positioning is a must to avoid putting the deep bunkers in play..

Those are my retorts.. Kevin.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 11:52:22 AM by Kevin Edwards »

Kevin Edwards

Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2006, 11:03:51 AM »
Kevin - who cares if he didn't include any of the items you seem to think he was obligated to include, its his website and his reviews. Take it up with him on his website




Quote
And who said anything about lynching Joe.. He sure lynched Raynor then by his review and some members.


That's a good question; who did say anything about lynching joe?

SPDB, I'm done with you on this,  I'm talking architecture.   Who cares if it is on his blog or here, he is a registered user..

Here is what Tom Doak said on the sacred cows thread to answer your ?

 almost started a brawl the other day when I said something about Sand Hills here that was not 110% positive.  And there's another active thread where Mr. Rigo is about to be lynched for writing heresies about Fishers Island.

What are the other sacred cows of GCA?

I ask because we might as well put them on a list and declare them off-limits to criticism, and spend our time discussing other courses which are not beyond argument

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2006, 11:07:44 AM »
I played Fishers Island for the first time some three weeks ago. Not knowing much about the nuances of architectural features that seem de rigueur on GCA, I thought I would add my piece.

For a course without an irrigation system it was in remarkable shape, the greens were keen and the bunkering more than adequate. Had I been wearing plus fours and a tie, I felt that I had been had been transported back to the 'twenties.

It was a perfect day for golf and the moment my host parked the car, I felt an affinity to the place. Later I made mention that it placed in my top five and could willingly play the course daily throughout the season and never tire of it.

Tom D. spoke of not qualifying a hole by its vista but would not the sheer enjoyment of playing the 15th and 16th at Cypress Point, the various holes at MPCC, Fishers Island and Sand Hills balance out what some may think to be the great salient architectural features of Winged Foot and Olympic?

I daresay that I am considered odd in these matters but the greatness of a course is when it causes the spirits to soar, Fishers Island did it for me.

Bob

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2006, 11:37:44 AM »

I daresay that I am considered odd in these matters but the greatness of a course is when it causes the spirits to soar, Fishers Island did it for me.


Yes. That's exactly right. And when your spirit soars, thinking too hard about this or that is beside the point.

Bob

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2006, 11:44:58 AM »
Joe

I actually read that review several months ago. I rather enjoy a challenge to the convention, although I have no idea if you are close to the mark on Fishers Isl, not having played it myself.

Reading some of your other reviews on courses I have played, I would note some disagreement.

I look forward to your reviews of Ocean Forest and Seminole. Please get busy on this.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back