[cary lichtenstein]

I've played 3 of his courses:

Calusa Pines was the best and I think he did an excellent job, very creative shaping on dead flat land in Southern Florida.

Olde Stonewall was a bit funky, but given the difficultly with the site, and the routing, all in all, I would recommend it to anyone to play.

Desert Willow was the 3rd in dead flat Palm Desert and it was dissappointing to me, too many bunkers, overdone I thought.

All in all, from my small sampling, I liked what he does, but I think it is shaper dependent to some degree.

Erin Hills looks good, but I heard that Ron Whitten had more influence there.

[Eric Olsen]

We have always enjoyed his Baker National course in Minnesota, which is near Hazeltine.  Very fun and challenging.  

[Jim Nugent]

List of Hurdzan courses, from his website, part 1:

Annbriar Golf Course
Waterloo, Illinois
     Golf Digest: 7th Best Public Course in Illinois - 1995

Baker National Golf Course
Medina, Minnesota
     Maximum Golf: Top 100 Best Value Courses in the U.S. - 2001

Blackthorn Golf Club
South Bend, Indiana
     Golf Digest: Top Places to Play - 2002
     Golf Digest: Top 10 Best New Public Course - 1995

Blue Ash Golf Club
Blue Ash, Ohio
     Golf Digest: Top 75 Public Course - 1996

Bully Pulpit Golf Club
Medora, North Dakota
     Golf Digest: Best New Affordable Public Course - 2005
     Golf Magazine: Top 10 You Can Play - 2005
     Golfweek: 3rd Best Public Access Course in North Dakota - 2005

Calusa Pines Golf Club
Naples, Florida
     Golfweek: Top 100 America's Best Modern Courses (28) - 2006
     Golf Magazine: Top 100 Courses (92) - 2005
     Golf Digest: 6th Best Course in Florida (public or private) - 2005

Club at Bond Head
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
     Travel & Leisure Golf Magazine: Top 10 Best New Course - 2005
     The Golfer Magazine: Top 10 Best New International Course - 2005

Cobblestone Creek Country Club
Rochester, New York
     Golf Digest: Top 10 Best Private Course in New York - 1995

Cooks Creek Golf Club
Ashville, Ohio
     Golf Digest: Best Places to Play in Ohio - 2004, 2005
     Golfweek: 7th Best Public Access Course in Ohio - 2005

Country Club of St. Albans   (Tavern Creek Course)
St. Albans, Missouri
     Golf Digest: Best Golf Course in Missouri (public or private) - 2005

Desert Willow Golf Resort (Firecliff & Mountain View Courses)
Palm Desert, California
     Golf Digest: Best Places to Play in California - 2004, 2005
     Golf Digest: Top 10 in Course Conditioning - 2004, 2005 (Mountain View)
     Golf For Women Magazine:  50 Best Courses for Women (18) - 2003

Devil's Paintbrush Golf Club
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
     Score Magazine:  Top 100 Courses in Canada (13th) - 2004, 2005
     Golf Almanac:  Top 50 in the World - 1994
     Golf Digest: Best New Course in Canada - 1992

Devil's Pulpit Golf Club
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
     Score Magazine: Top 100 Courses in Canada  (29th) - 2004, 2005
     Score Magazine: Best Private Course in Canada - 2002
     Golf Digest: Best New Course in Canada - 1991

Dundarave Golf Club at Brudenell River Resort
Cardigan, PEI, Canada
     Score Magazine:  Top 100 Courses in Canada (63rd) - 2004, 2005
     Score Magazine:  Top 6 Best Golf Resorts in Canada - 2003

Eagles Landing Golf Course
Ocean City, Maryland
     Golf Digest: Top 75 Affordable Golf Courses in the U.S. - 2005
     Golf for Women Magazine:
                    Top 100 Women-Friendly Courses in the U.S. - 2005
     Golf Digest: 7th Best Course in Maryland - 2004

Eaglesticks Golf Course
Zanesville, Ohio
     Golfweek:  5th Best Public Access Course in Ohio - 2005
     Golf Digest: America's 100 Greatest Public Courses  (100th) - 2003

En-Joie Golf Club
Endicott, New York
     Golfweek: 23rd among America's 30 Best Municipal Golf Courses - 2000
     Home of the PGA Tour's BC Open
     Soon to be home to a Champions Tour event

Fieldstone Golf Club
Greenville, Delaware
     Golf Digest: 2nd Best Course in Delaware (public or private) - 2005

Farm Links at Pursell Farms
Sylacauga, Alabama
     Golfweek:  4th Best Public Access Course in Alabama - 2006
     Golfweek:  Top 40 New Courses in America (29th) - 2005

Georgian Bay Club
Collingwood, Ontario, Canada
     Golf Digest: Best New Canadian Course (2nd) - 2006
     Fairways Magazine: Best New Course in Ontario - 2004

Gibson Bay Golf Club
Richmond, Kentucky
     Golf Digest:  16th among America's 30 Best Municipal Golf Courses - 2000
     Golf Digest: 6th Best Public Course in Kentucky - 1995

Glenmaura National Golf Club
Moosic, Pennsylvania
     Golf Digest: 20th Best Course in Pennsylvania (public or private) - 2005
     Nationwide Tour: Home of Northeast Pennsylvania Classic

The Golf Club of Dublin  
Dublin, Ohio
     Golf Magazine:  Honorable Mention: Top Ten You Can Play - 2003

Great Hope Golf Course
Princess Anne, Maryland
     Golf Digest: GCSAA Environmental Leaders in Golf Chapter Winner - 2002

Hamilton Farms Golf Club
Gladstone, New Jersey
     Golf Digest: 9th Best Course in New Jersey (public or private) - 2005

Harbor Links Golf Course
North Hempstead, New York
     GCSAA: Environmental Steward Award - 2001
     Certified Audubon International Signature Sanctuary Course - 2000
     (1st municipal course and 2nd in New York State to become certified)

Heritage Golf Club at Westmoor
Westminster, Colorado
     Colorado Avid Golfer: Most Under-rated Golf Course in Colorado -

[Jim Nugent]

Hurdzan courses part 2:

Indian Springs Golf Course
Mechanicsburg, Ohio
     Golf Digest: 3rd Best Public Course in Ohio - 1995

Ironhorse Golf Club
Leawood, Kansas
     Golf Magazine: Picked by 7 time Cy Young Award Winner Roger Clemens
  as his favorite place to play when he's in Kansas City to play the Royals - 2005
      Golf Digest:  Best Places to play in Kansas - 2002
     Golf Digest: Best Public Course in Kansas - 1995

Keystone Resort  "River Course"
Keystone, Colorado
     Colorado Golf Magazine:  Top Ten Golf Resorts (2nd) - 2004
     Golf Magazine: One of the 75 Best Golf Resorts - 2004 (Silver Medalist)
     Golf For Women Magazine: 50 Best Courses for Women (9) - 2003
     Golf Digest: One of America’s Top 75 Golf Resorts - 2002

Lassing Pointe Golf Course
Union, Kentucky
     Golfweek: 2nd Best Public Access Course in Kentucky - 2005
     Golf Digest: 9th Best Course in Kentucky (public or private) - 2005
     Golf Digest & GCSAA Environmental Leaders in Golf Award - 2001

Le Diable Resort
Mont Tremblant, Quebec, Canada
     Score Magazine: Top 100 Courses in Canada (67th) - 2004, 2005
     Score Magazine: Top 7 Golf Resorts in Canada - 2002
     Hosted Canadian Skins Game (Couples, Daly, Duval & Weir) - 1999

The Ledges
Hunstville, Alabama
     Golf Digest: 6th Best Course in Alabama

Little Mountain Country Club  
Concord, Ohio
     Golf Digest:  “Five-Star” rating  the highest possible...based on the
                          evaluations of 20,000 subscribers to Golf Digest.
     Golf Magazine:  'Now Playing' reader rating, Perfect 5.0
 

The Meadows Golf Club at Grand Valley State University
Grand Rapids, Michigan
     NCAA Division II National Championships - 2002
     Golf For Women Magazine: Top 10 Women Friendly Golf Courses
                                               in U.S. - 1998

Naples National Golf Club
Naples, Florida
     Golfweek:   Top 100 (69th) Best Modern Golf Course in the U.S. - 1999
     Golf Digest: Top 100 in the U.S. (100th) - 1996

Olde Stonewall Golf Club
Ellwood City, Pennsylvania
     Golf Digest: America’s 100 Greatest Public Courses (55th) - 2005
     Golfweek: 3rd Best Public Course in Pennsylvania - 2005
     Golf Digest: 10th Best Course in Pennsylvania (public or private) - 2005

Philadelphia Cricket Club
Flourtown, Pennsylvania
   
Raven Golf Club at Three Peaks
Silverthorne, Colorado
     Golf Digest: 20th Best Course in Colorado (public or private) - 2005
     Colorado Avid Golfer: Best Mountain Course in Colorado
     GCSAA: Environmental Steward Award - 2001

Royal Woodbine Golf Club
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
     Score Magazine: Top 100 Courses in Canada (85th) - 2002

Sand Barrens Golf Club
Swainton, New Jersey
     Golfweek: 2nd Best Public Access Course in New Jersey - 2005
     Golfweek: Top 100 (95th) Best Modern Golf Course in U.S. - 1999

Shelter Harbor Golf Club
Cjarlestown, Rhode Island
     Travel & Leisure Golf: "Destined for Greatness" - 2005
     Connecticut Golf: "This course will quickly rise to the top of everyone's
     'Best' list"

StoneWater Golf Club
Highland Heights, Ohio
     Golf Magazine: Picked by 7 time Cy Young Award Winner Roger Clemens
     as his favorite place to play when he's in Cleveland to play the Indians-2005
     Golf Digest: America’s 100 Greatest Public Courses (29th) - 2005
     Golf Digest: Best Public Course in Ohio - 2005
     Nationwide Tour: Home of The Cleveland Open

[Jim Nugent]

Hurdzan part 3:

Tallwoods Golf & Country Club
Forster-Tuncurry, Australia
     Golf Australia: Australia’s Top 25 Resort Courses (19) - 2003
     Australian Golf Digest: Top 100 Country Courses - 2003
     Golf World: “Australia’s Best New Course” - 1999

Troy Burne Golf Club
Hudson, Wisconsin
     Golfweek: 8th Best Public Access Course in Wisconsin - 2005
     Golf Digest: Best Places to Play in Wisconsin - 2004, 2005
     Nationwide Tour: Home of the Scholarship America Showdown

Turner Hill Golf Club
Ipswich, Massachusetts
     Travel & Leisure Golf:
           One of the 10 best New Private Courses in U.S. - 2004

Valley View Golf Club
Fayetteville, Arkansas
     Maximum Golf: Best New Public Course in Arkansas - 2001

The Vineyard
Cincinnati, Ohio
     Golf Digest: Best New Public Course - 1987 (runner-up)

Wasioto Winds Golf Club at Pine Mountain State Resort Park
Pineville, Kentucky
     Golf Digest: 4th Best New Affordable Public Course - 2002
     Golf Magazine: Honorable Mention “Top Ten You Can Play” - 2002

WeaverRidge Golf Club
Peoria, Illinois
     Golf Digest: America’s 100 Greatest Public Courses (37th) - 2005
     Golfweek: Third Best Public Access Course in Illinois - 2005
     Golf Digest: 12th Best Course in Illinois (public or private) - 2005

Westwood Plateau Golf & Country Club
Vancouver, B.C. Canada
     Score Magazine: Top 100 Courses in Canada (34th) - 2002
     Golf Digest: Best New Course in Canada - 1995 (runner-up)

Widow's Walk Golf Club
Scituate, Massachusetts
     Golf Magazine: Top 25 You Can Play (ranked # 9 in Northeast) - 2000      
     Golf Digest: Top Ten Best New Affordable Public Courses U.S. - 1998
     Golf Digest: Environmental Leaders in Golf Award - 1997

Widow's Walk has received the Hole View Environmental Yardage Book, signifying it as an Audubon International prestigious certified cooperative sanctuary course.

Willow Point Golf Club
Alexander City, Alabama    

Fun Renovations Facts:
     200,000 cu. yards of earth was moved to create new features…
     1.8 billion Bent Grass seeds were installed on putting surfaces…      
     10,859 tons of sand was used to build bunkers and greens…
     6.5 miles of new cart paths…
     1,600 new irrigation heads…
     4.7 million square feet of sod or 1,753,731 individual pieces…
            ..... if placed end to end it’s enough sod to stretch to Lake Michigan

[noonan]

He is the architect of record at Waldon Pond in northern Cinci.

It is a fun course with generous fairways and nice green complexes.

Blue Ash is also a treat to play but not quite as nice as WP.

[Steve Pozaric]

I have played 3 HF Courses
1. Crystal Highlands – near Crystal City, MO.  Unfortunately, NLE, just too far from enough golfers and too much mid/upper tier competition.  Had it been closer to StL, it would have done much better.  Pretty good piece of land, probably a bit too hilly, but fun.

2.  Annbriar.  One of my favorite courses in St. Louis.  “Links” (since it is in S. Illinois, probably “Prairie” is more apt) style on the front 9 and in the woods on the back.  Greens have movement, but not too wild, good bunkering and a good bit of strategy can come into play on many holes.  http://www.annbriar.com/

3.  St. Albans/Tavern Creek.  To me, the property was a little too tight in some places, but overall a good course.  I only played it once, so I don’t have a lot of detailed recollections.  Not sure how this is #1 in Missouri, but that is for another day.  If Jeff S. sees this thread, perhaps he could weigh in as he has played it a few more times than I.

[Jason Topp]

Baker National Golf Course
Medina, Minnesota

 Troy Burne Golf Club
Hudson, Wisconsin

I’ve played these two, one of which is an upscale CCFAD type facility and the other a county course.  Both have wide fairways, a variety of par five lengths, and big greens with some pretty significant undulation.  

Baker National is pretty tough for a county course, except for 16 and 17 which are poorly done par fours of about 350 yards that seem completely out of place with the rest of the course.  I can only guess that originally more difficult holes were planned but someone concluded the course would be too tough if the originally planned holes were built.

Troy Burne plays very firm and uses blindness as an incentive to hit the tee shot to a specific part of the fairway.

Both courses are walkable, but a pretty difficult hike with some significant hill climbs.  

I do not like the shaping on either course.  Both feature very artificial looking undulations, particularly on and around the greens.  Troy Burne in particular has a stadium course feel to it.

Conceptually, I like both courses.  Both have a nice variety of par fours, from driveable to almost not reachable in regulation.  Both use water in about the right amount – water makes some holes interesting but there is not a steady diet of it.  Both include a number of half par holes.  Both are playable for all levels of player.

I’m just not a big fan of the aesthetics of either course.  I’m guessing Doak 4.

[Doug Ralston]

I had forgotten Walden Ponds. it is indeed a nice development course. He has a MUCH bigger resume than i had know. The Willows at Kenton Country is a tough nut, but pretty and a lot of fun to play. Didn't he also do the 3rd nine at Shaker Run, which is on lesser land than the Hills 18, but still a nice challenging set of holes. And I believe the Hamilton Country course 'Vineyard' is his too ...... that one is quite good.

I have not yet seen a course I was disappointed in by Hurdzan/Fry. And most I have played I feel are quite good. Got AnnBriar and Little Mountain on my list now.

Doug

[Matt MacIver]

Didn't realize he/they did Eagle's Landing near Ocean City, MD.  I played it ~15 years ago and remember thinking it was one of the coolest courses I had played to date.  I remember...thinking.  Which was a novelty for me on the course, and still is.  

[Glenn Spencer]

I had forgotten Walden Ponds. it is indeed a nice development course. He has a MUCH bigger resume than i had know. The Willows at Kenton Country is a tough nut, but pretty and a lot of fun to play. Didn't he also do the 3rd nine at Shaker Run, which is on lesser land than the Hills 18, but still a nice challenging set of holes. And I believe the Hamilton Country course 'Vineyard' is his too ...... that one is quite good.

I have not yet seen a course I was disappointed in by Hurdzan/Fry. And most I have played I feel are quite good. Got AnnBriar and Little Mountain on my list now.

Doug

I kind of like Walden Ponds, more the back than the front, in fact, I really like the back. Both of the par 5's are really good. I like 11, 13 is quality, I love 14 and 16. 17 is fine and once again 18 is great. The 3rd nine at Shaker Run is an absolute abortion.

[Matt_Ward]

Any real discussion about Dr. Hurdzan's work has to mention his partnership with Dana Fry. Candidly, when Fry joined up with Hurdzan the product line certainly became much more noticeable on a range of fronts.

The real one of consequence is the work at Errin Hills. I've played about 40 of the courses that the tandem have created. Some have been unique and surprising (see Cobblestone Creek) while others have been a clear thumbs down because of a massive overkill (see Olde Stonewall in the Pittsburgh area), to name just one.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I thought Pilgrim's Oak near Lancaster Pa. was a Hurzdan.  If it is, he shouldn't be embarrassed about it and should include it on his list.  I really like it as a low-fee (@$40) public course.  Intersting diversity of holes; a great 190 yd. par 3 over diagonal creek/pond; lots of fun.  Fieldstone is also fun, but entirely unwalkable.  In a walking-only tournament, the Phila. Golf Assn. had to provide carts to get players from some greens to tees.
    I don't like the new Cricket Club course at all.  Too many similar holes (#2 and #18 are almost the same par 4, and #14 is a par 5 version of the same hole one more time; #12 and #16 are also very similar.)  All the holes on the back nine (but one, a drop kick par 3) parallel each other and #'s 1 and 2 - back and forth ad nauseum.  I also don't particularly like bunkers with big grass fingers running through them; Hurzdan does.  They may work for Thomas, but give me the flashes of Flynn, Ross and Tillie.  And finally, I really hate the fescue.  Talk about no options.
    So, in my pinion, a mixed bag for Dr. Hurzdan.

[Andy Troeger]

I consider Blackthorn my home course, even though I'm lucky if I play it once a month. I think its a nice course on a nice property. It has some great holes, and a couple that I don't care for, but its a good home course because its always interesting to play and provides a good challenge but rewards good shots. I think its just as good (and maybe even a tad better to my personal preference) as Warren by Coore/Crenshaw, although Hurdzan admittedly had more to work with in terms of terrain.

Aberdeen, in Valparaiso, is a Hurdzan/Fry, and I don't think it matches up with Blackthorn. Its a housing track; completely unwalkable due to huge green-to-tee distances, and I think I would hit driver about 3-4 times if I played here regularly. Non-thinking position golf...pretty but not thought provoking.

The only other one I've played is Gibson Bay in Kentucky, which I only played once in 40 degree weather a few years ago in the spring. It was a pretty nice course, and a great deal at like $12 to walk. I'd put it somewhere in between the other two.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re: Militia Hill @ Philly Cricket

Why play there when the old course is a Tillinghast/Flynn?

I've never opted to play it since it opened. It hasn't cracked the top 25 in PA in either GW or GD.

When there was talk of a PGA Tour event coming to town, it was mentioned as a possible venue since Brian Roberts of Comcast(majority owner of The Golf Channel) is a member there and the Militia Hill course has more space but obviously Philadelphia is not a major market for golf.

[Buck Wolter]

I was in Columbus, OH last week and was looking for a restaurant, missed my turn and ended up in a non-descript office park where I ran into the Hurdzan Fry HQ.

I thought about going and knocking on the door but images of William Shatner and a Trekkie knocking on his door ran through my mind -- had some great sushi instead.

[James Cashmore]

On a recent trip to the States, I had the pleasure in playing Scioto Country Club in Columbus, Ohio.  Michael Hurdzan was commissioned to do some restoration work there and my personal thoughts are that his firm has done a very good job. I would say that the character of the Ross' work has been very well respected.  

Not sure if anyone else on here has played Scioto recently but I'd be interested in hearing other opinions of the work completed.

 

[Larry_Rodgers]

Mike Hurdzan's work should not be limitted to the golf courses so many of us play. His work should also include his dedication to writing books, volunteering on countless boards and commitees for golf development. In addition to his PHD which he has jokingly called "Post Hole Digger" he is a retired special forces Officer of the US Army and a great father.

I have had the wonderful opportunity to spend quality time with Mike in his Columbus office which is full of extensive golf history, a recreated Scottish pub and a library of publications that any student of the game would find very enlightning.

Mike is truly one of the nicest gentleman in the business and has given more personal time to the business of golf than many of his peers.

Mike also has a staff of very talented people, Dana Fry gets the billing which is well deserved. Bill Kerman is the staff engineering person who communicates well with clients driven by design and engineering issues. Jason Stika is the hidden talent secret and the guy who you would love to have as a son-in-law. Then there is David Whelchel who is a great student of the game, a former college coach and the guy who you want to call to play United Kindom course with. I recall the story of David playing St. Andrews backwords with hickories on a Sunday. David gets the fun calls we all dream of.

Dana holds a golf event evry year called the "WIG" and he has dominated the "smashmouth" division for many years. I look forward to the Keepers of the green event and have plans to be in Canada in early September for the event. PJ says that only good people are invited, but has openning for those who meet her strict "fun factor" requirements.

So what do I think of his work? I will leave the architecture comments to the group. I think Mike Hurdzan's work and dedication to the game of golf is one we all enjoy from a man who is very humble when being recognized for his contributions.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

I played Turner Hill twice a couple of years ago.  Unfortunately, it was right in the middle of yet another intensely wet spring here in New England.  The fairways just had no chance, and were very sloshy.  But the greens were firm and true, and more had more interesting contours than I'm used to seeing.  On the first hole, I actually had to putt through the fringe to get it close to the front pin position.

I liked the course, even though I didn't play very well either time.  I think they did an excellent job of taking what the rolling terrain gave them.  

The only doubts I had were about the routing, and both of these points have been discussed here previously:

1) It's quite a long cart ride to the first tee, and  you have to wind your way out and behind another tee to get there.

2) The 17th hole should be the 18th hole.  The actual 18th hole is a nice par-3 over water, to a shallow and very interesting green (and a peacock when I played it).  But 17 ends right in front of the old-mansion clubhouse, and then 18 tee is right under the veranda, playing back out.

[John Kavanaugh]

2) The 17th hole should be the 18th hole.  The actual 18th hole is a nice par-3 over water, to a shallow and very interesting green (and a peacock when I played it).  But 17 ends right in front of the old-mansion clubhouse, and then 18 tee is right under the veranda, playing back out.

Maybe we are seeing a trend of confusion...The bye hole at Erins Hills being between 9 and 10 instead of after the round sounds very similar.

[Doug Ralston]

Martin;

Still better to take what the land gives you than to try to make #1 or #18 be next to the Clubhouse. Sounds more like you want the Clubhouse in a different location than #1 or #17/#18.

Doug

[Martin Del Vecchio]

The clubhouse is a beatiful old mansion, and sits exactly where it should.  Stunningly, there is not a good photo of it on the club's web site (www.turnerhill.com).

The 17th is the prototypical "tough finishing hole", with length and water, and the green is perfectly situated in front of the mansion.  

The 18th is a short par 3 played away from the mansion; when you finish, you have to double back through the parking lot to avoid the following group.

And Doug, I guess I agree that it's better to take what the land gives you.  I really like both 17 and 18, and I guess I'm just whining about the routing.  

Two common refrains on this web site are "the routing stinks" and "an architect needs to take what the land gives them".  I think when those two goals are in conflict, I would prefer to get better golf holes from the land.

Although anybody walking from the mansion to the practice tee, then back to the 1st tee, has a valid beef.  It's clearly a club for carts.

[Doug Ralston]

Martin;

I can understand what you mean. But it looks like carts are the future of golf. Very few courses deny them now. It would be nice if one plays too the Clubhouse, and #1 is 'right over there, but we agree the land makes most of those decisions.

My favorite [home?] course does not return to the clubhouse till #18. And there has never been a complaint from walkers ...... because none ever survived; it is mountainous and walking is impossible. In fact, if you had no map on the scorecard, I venture you could never even guess where 'home' is after nine, because Eagle Ridge winds through those ridges in extremis, and only once do you even see another fairway from where you are playing. Serene natural golf experience.

It takes all kinds of courses to make a great Architect website, yes?

Doug

[Glenn Spencer]

I see that he did Eaglesticks. I went out of my way to play that one and did not think much of it all. I can't even remember the specifics, but I did not think much of it and thought it was overpriced and severely overrated. Indian Springs on the other hand, I really enjoyed, I like that golf course a lot. Very demanding off the tee, some gorgeous holes and some small greens that had a lot of movement in them. Mechanicsburg- Home of the Fighting Mechanics, I don't know why anyone would ever be there, but if you are, I would pretty much recommend Indian Springs to most anyone.

[D_Malley]

militia hill @ Phila Cricket

i like the overall routing and the firm and fast conditions at the course, but like a previous comment, the bunker work is way too severe.  it seems like several times you are faced with a bunker shot of 170 -200 yards with extreme side hill lies while within the bunkers.  the course does have alot of up and back in the routing, but so does the tillinghast course, which most people do not realise until you look at the aireal.  tillinghast did a much better job of not making the holes look and play similar.

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