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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2006, 11:57:20 AM »
Matt,

I know you review courses as an avocation and passionate hobby, but I don't see it necessary to enforce those "high journalistic standards' of review in most cases, given its just a way to discuss our mutual interest in golf design.

I don't disagree with what you say, but feel its well known that the journalistic standards that you naturally apply to reviews in your publication don't necessarily apply on internet discussion boards.  While I would love to have all reviews of my courses vetted by higher standards, I understand that won't happen, given the right of free speech.

Of the 1500 people who participate here, I bet that the average participant may have seen no more than a dozen of the top 100 courses and yet we discuss them anyway.  It would be a lifetime dream to see even a few of them once for most. Others, like me, have seen more, but in some cases, not in 10 or 20 years and they - or my memory - may have changed.  If we removed all posts here not based on recent on site experience, traffic and interst would go down signifigantly!

 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2006, 12:17:12 PM »
Jeff, I have to say that Matt Ward makes more sense on this issue.  As for my "couching", I would like to point out that my comments based on the few pictures we have seen were not about the quality or merits of the golf course.  They were about the maintenance issues of large sandy waste areas in that windy and harsh country causing serious sand migration onto fairways over winter and about the fragility of the prairie grasses.  That said nothing about the golf course design, strategy or interest the course holds for players.  I thought I made that clear.  I do not advocate making such criticism of playability and interest from photos.  But, some things do stand out in photos.  Seeing the vast waste area puts me in mind that that issue has to be addressed at Sand Hills GC just as it will at Dismal River.  Sand Hills has some 10 years experience in dealing with those problems and I suspect Dismal will have their own learning curve.

Word on the street by annonymous players don't cut it with me.  Attribute a name and a specific criticism and I'll listen and then go from there.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2006, 12:20:35 PM »
Jeff:

The issue isn't about free speech -- it's about having competent speech that goes a bit beyond the "I think this and that" but have done NO HEAVY LIFTING to support such claims. Talking out of one's butt is a favorite American 19th hole pastime but it does little do really understand the considerable efforts associated with any golf project. I would think you would know that better than most. If you believe the contributions of Joe (I have never been there) Sixpack add to the overall elements of discussion so be it.

I don't doubt people can and should have opinions -- I just prefer the INFORMED ones more so. Sorry about my personal preference. Unfortunately, in this day of the Internet it seems people can weigh in on any subject but have little direct connection / expertise to back that up.

I didn't say people should not comment but that to have some sort of CREDIBILITY I would suggest that a bit more direct experience be the guide. In fact, I would think that even more people would take the site more seriously if people when posting would understand dimension.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2006, 12:27:30 PM »
We all know how John got his information...why not just come out and say it.  This smells like Eckstein to me...

I called Dismal River today to see about playing it myself...Wonderfully friendly people who said they are opening Sunday and would love to have anyone interested in the course come out and take a look.  If I am still alive this fall I hope to make the trip.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2006, 12:41:53 PM »
I don't believe any course can be accurately assessed through some analysis of photos and the like. This is a cheap man's mechanism because it doesn't have any DIRECT PERSONAL connection. You don't feel the land -- from simply taking pictures -- you get it from actually being there.

I am grateful that Waffle House has photos of the food on the menu, but you gotta eat the food, smell the cig smoke and shoo the flies.  



Mike

P.S. Doesn't anybody else like to play the Waffle House Song on the Juke Box?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 12:51:43 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2006, 12:48:38 PM »
P.S. Doesn't anybody else like to play the Waffle House Song on the Juke Box?

One of my favorites.

I've also read the employee manual, "The Waffle House Way."
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2006, 01:23:43 PM »
Matt,

I know I can't piss further than you, so I won't argue. I know you prefer more informed opinions, and I respect that.  Its just that I can't see attaching those standards to an internet discussion board, nor can I see the value of you promoting stricter standards here, no matter how strong you feel, because it simply ain't gonna happen!  

My only point in the original question was, why does this thread generate some outrage, when there is a thread "Art Hills, Good or Bad?" going at the same time which invites opinions far broader?

Barney,

John Conley did clarify that it was some of his friends who went out to play there.  I don't think he is personally acquainted with Eckstein.

RJ,

I guess I missed your maintenance of sand waste areas comment or intent.  Those can be serious issues, and while I doubt C and C did smaller bunkers for just that reason, they probably are more practical.  When I saw the pictures of DR, I liked the look of the big waste areas, if for no other reason, I think the course should have a distinct look from SH for its own benefit and they do provide that.

Perhaps the entire issue would have gone away had John's post read:

For those of you with an interest in the upcoming opening of Dismal River later this week, "I have some friends - knowledgeable and enthusiastic golfers all - who made the trip specifically to play DR, based on similar interests.  They told me that the course is far more difficult than Sand Hills (could be a fact if course rating is established) and say they much prefer the challenges afforded at Sand Hills, and won't play DR again because its too difficult for their tastes. (clearly identified opinion, and your opinion may differ)

Would that be considered rumormongering or a simple report?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2006, 02:27:21 PM »
Jeff,

Simple and preferable to "word on the street"...  :)

As you know, all golf design and maintenance out there comes with its own set of unique challenges.  I'm all for the idea of offering something different in playability and style from SHGC.  I don't mind if someone says they won't go back because it was too hard, or they would go back becasue it is very hard.  That is perspective even I can understand, either way.  Yet, from that vague comment, without specifics, I'd have to go and experience it myself to have any criticism or praise, other than impressions I might want to convey based on photos with a caveat that it is only an "impression" of something based on photos, not valid criticism.  

I don't see that criticism of a course's merits, or architects abilitities is the same as offering a comment on "impressions" based on pictures.  Or, as you note, there would be far fewer posters on GCA, since we can't go play them all to acquire first hand knowledge and credibility.  

The difference in my mind is; by criticism of the merits you are taking responsibility that your comments can be a detraction from someone's professional reputation.   If you have the goods to make those comments, fine.  You professionals can and should stand the heat as you are in that sort of business.  But, if one offers impressions based on photos, and clearly states that it is not criticising based on actual experience on the course, then one is not detracting from the reputation of the archie or super, per se, just offering up a comment as part of the ongoing discussion...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2006, 02:39:33 PM »
Are people's issues with this post related to the negativity of the review?  I recall Patrick Mucci posting that the word on the street was that Sebonack was terrific.  I don't believe he was taken to task for such a post.  
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 02:55:19 PM by Tim Pitner »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2006, 02:51:09 PM »
RJ,

Sometimes, the inferences of our word choices leave something to be desired, as I think was the case with John.

Some thoughts:

Changing the wording from "I saw" or even my "trusted source saw" to the more broad brushed "word on the street"  connotes a "fait accompli" that the verict is in, which of course, cannot be possible for an unopened course unless it is really a stinker, which this one clearly is not.

Also interesting how expectations of a course change the disucssion.  If you went to my Sand Creek, built as an affordable muni within housing on flat ground you would be more likely to be pleasantly surprised.  When you discuss or play a course built on a world class by a world class architect, its more likely that the course won't live up to expectations, precisely because we have set them so high.

Lastly, from private email, I know Johns friends who played the course to be gca lurkers and have similar interests to us, so I would consider them to be a trusted source and/or valuble opinion, even if they don't want to post themselves, whereas perhaps others who don't know John (and again, because of his original "word on the street" attribution might not.  

It does seem that regular and valuble posters like John could possibly be given some benefit of the doubt versus a hit and run poster like Eckstein, no?   In effect, by staying being a regular contributor, John is taking responsibility for his posts and opinions.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 02:52:06 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dismal River
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2006, 02:53:43 PM »
I can't believe my ears.  Word on the streets is that some guys played Dismal and said they'd never go back.  (They must not have joined!)

Nicklaus's designs have gotten better and better and the site is just 6 miles as the crow flies from the hallowed ground of Sand Hills.

Can anyone refute or confirm this report?  Maybe these guys are just golf snobs and expected more.

This whole thread has taken an unintended turn that makes me chuckle.  It is pretty clear that I haven't yet been there.  And I am surprised at the early report.  To those that need to know the source, the solution is pretty simple - don't give such a report any credence.

The hostility found in many of the replies gives me a bad taste in my mouth.  Why the venom?

Paraphrasing, like Jeff did for me, couldn't the replies be:

A)  Might be the case, but I won't believe that until I see it for myself.
B)  These guys are probably wrong and wouldn't know great architecture if they saw the Frank Lloyd Wright gas station in Cloquet, Minnesota.
C)  I think someone's jealous!!
D)  To be fair to Dismal, it needs to be evaluated without the inevitable comparison to its neighbor.

Has anyone seen the slope rating?  I've heard it is north of 150 from the back tees and the CR is a whopping 5 strokes over par!  If so, Sand Hills it is not.  And I don't think it is trying to be.

One rhetorical question... if he's still alive, will the honorary inaugural dual club champion be Jim Stefanich?  (Props to those who get the reference.)


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2006, 03:40:41 PM »
Well, I hope you aren't saying I'm spreading venom. ::)

I thought I had paraphrased in my own Stengelese style, points A and D.  I'd defer to Kelly on that... ;)

I don't get the reference either...  :)  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2006, 03:53:57 PM »
John,

I take umbrance to your implied reference that the Frank Lloyd Wright gas station in Cloquet, MN is not great architecture!  And, I think they should restore it to original form by getting rid of that dry cleaners they tacked on the back...... ;D

RJ,

As noted, I don' disagree with your points A and D......I wonder why all of those things couldn't have been said all that briefly......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2006, 04:12:45 PM »
My point is that I think it is poor manners to denegrate a brand new course to 1500 posters and however many lurkers without even seeing it. Word of mouth spreads and negativity attaches itself to the course, disserved or not, and it is difficult to overcome that.

The architect that did the job for Nicklaus I'm sure gave it 100% effort and I'd bet the ranch he reads these posts and why we can't give him the benefit of the doubt until the course is played by some of us and reported intelligently,  is beyond me.





Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2006, 04:22:22 PM »
As Tim said, no one would question a "I heard great things" thread as much.  So, yes, its bad manners, the hallmark of internet concussion boards. I think I chose to defend John since it wasn't as bad a breach as others here, and we just played golf last week.

As to the gca's feelings, I can tell you they have come to expect as much and any positive vibe is just a bonus.....  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
How's this Jeff?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2006, 04:29:26 PM »
Dismal River: It surely ain't no Tangle Ridge!

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2006, 04:35:51 PM »
My point is that I think it is poor manners to denegrate a brand new course to 1500 posters...

...why we can't give him the benefit of the doubt until the course is played by some of us and reported intelligently...

No doubt a person that isn't a member of this elite set of 1,500 posters is capable only of posting UNintelligently.

Did anyone denigrate anything?  If so, it is a person that played the course and gave their thoughts.  Are they guilty of "bad manners" (can't help but think of Barney the Purple Dinosaur) or am I for posing the query to determine if I should heed their suggestion?

Quass, if a more pompous post has ever appeared on the site I didn't see it.  How dare heathens opine about golf design.




Tim Kratz

Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2006, 04:55:47 PM »
John:  You shouldn't believe your ears.   I am one of the owners of Dismal River.   I'm not sure why, but it seems that you or someone you know has a peculiar axe to grind with this project.  I've copied below a colloquy you and I had last year in which you posted rumors regarding the project which were false.  Your method last year was similar, though you now have  exchanged the "rumblings out of Mullen," for "word on the streets."   Very, very few people have played the course.  None have played it in opening-day condition.  Obviously, I have skin in the game here, but I would be critical of such vague, unsubstantiated statements with regard to any project, particularly one that is not even open yet.  By the way, I have played the course (in unfinished form, obviously), and I think it is incredible.    



I've heard rumblings out of Mullen.  I'm curious to see if anyone else heard this while there recently.  (sidebar: I'm jealous)

#1 Is it true that ONE HOLE at Dismal River saw them move THREE TIMES the dirt moved for the entire Sand Hills course?  If so, this just confirms what one famed architect told me.  "I couldn't have done what they did.  The course reflects remarkable restraint."
 
John: I'm not sure how much dirt was moved at Sand Hills, but I can tell you, as can anyone that has visited the site, that we are moving very, very small amounts at Dismal River.  No-one can match the 2000 cubic yards claimed at Sand Hills, but Jack and the owners of this project are absolutely committed to minimal alterations to the land.  There is no need to change the extraordinary setting nature has provided.      

#2 I'm told the impact of the Dismal River course on the area economy has been significant.  One cattleman can't get the scrapers to come help him on the ranch, so busy are they with the course.  It isn't like there are a lot of other workers nearby!

This is blatantly false.  We have never used a scraper.  We have two small John Deere 650 and 700 dozers on site.  We have two equipment operators on site, one from California,  the other from Hawaii.  We have received over 100 resumes looking for work, many of them local.  We are very sensitive to the local economy.  We hope and expect that any change will be for the better.  Usually, communities are happy when more employment opportunities arrive, and the project has been well received by the residents of Mullen.      


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2006, 05:44:41 PM »
Tim, thanks for your post.

Last September I was fortunate enough to tour the property with a founding member of the club.  I posted a mini-review of my thoughts a few months ago.  After reading this thread and thinking about it for a day or two, I felt compelled to comment.  If we are debating whether Dismal River is worth seeing and playing, it's a no-brainer.  Dismal River is amazing, a big, brawny and difficult sand hills course, distinctly different from both Ballyneal and Sand Hills.  It is dramatic and beautiful and filled with unusual features.  As previously reported, the course possesses more "quirky" features than its two well known neighbors, including an existing windmill that comes into play when playing your second shot to a par 5 green, and a longer par 3 with an amazing three piece green surrounding a bunker.  Really dramatic stuff.

I believe the course will be very difficult.  But that can't be a blanket condemnation.  After all, Oakmont is hard as nails, but people revere the place.  I am unconvinced that the course is easy enough to walk, but I hope I have the chance to see for myself when it opens for play.

You all know I'm a member of Ballyneal, and I'm very happy with my new membership.  I say Dismal River is really neat, and well worth the visit.

Tim, I know we'd all love to hear some details about the course and project, if you are allowed to provide them.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 06:09:36 PM by John Kirk »

Matt_Ward

Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2006, 05:51:33 PM »
Jeff:

I don't have the time or inclination to be the sheriff here on GCA regarding what people say or don't say. However, you can be sure that I will take the same line over and over regarding those folks who post comments either from second hand sources or simply from the seat of their pants.

Whether it changes anything at all is irrelevant. Just because people have opinions doesn't mean they are then protected from being held accountable. I simply believe it is wrong for people to fire away with a broad brush from nothing more than what "others have said."


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2006, 06:00:33 PM »
Tim,
   Thank you for coming onto the site and clarifying those points. It is unfortunate when information is reported incorrectly .
    I would be happy to hear what your thoughts are on the course up to this point. What do you feel are the strongest attributes of the course that will attract prospective members?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dismal River
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2006, 06:50:49 PM »
I'm not sure why, but it seems that you or someone you know has a peculiar axe to grind with this project.  

Not me.  As for the source of these thoughts - it is either an axe to grind or they are just sharing stories they've heard.

Congratulations on the opening of Dismal River.  It certainly is an exciting project.  One of the initially unanswered questions about the Sand Hills of Nebraska is what would other architects and other developers do with a similar site to what Youngscap, Crenshaw, and Coore encountered.

As mentioned on the board and repeatedly off, I like Nicklaus designs.  Which is why it came as a surprise to hear that Dismal River disappointed someone.

My wishes for continued success in the membership drive.  From what I've heard, Dismal River is a lot of things Sand Hills is not - and I don't think that necessarily has to be a bad thing.

Thanks for your post.  Another example of what makes this site great.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2006, 07:35:01 PM »
Tim:  Well, if you wanted to get good press on GCA.com, you should have hired me :) ... but of course I was already committed elsewhere.

Since I'm sure you have played the course, and I know you've played Sand Hills, how would you compare the difficulty and playability of the two?  The one thing I noticed in the pictures were a fair number of elevated greens -- of course Sand Hills has a few of those, too.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2006, 07:45:29 PM »
Thanks for your post.  Another example of what makes this site great.


John,

This isn't an example of what makes this site great. You start a questionable thread based on comments from four unidentified individuals without any specifics. Then a principal in the project is compelled to respond to a baseless post.

What's so great about this scenario?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 08:07:50 AM by Bill Gayne »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2006, 09:12:03 PM »
It is threads like this that makes this site great for me...Every time the ugly belly of the rating business is exposed we are that much closer to a better system..I love every rater to a person that I have ever met...but get them together in a group where the raterspeak starts to fly and somebody gets hurt...every single time.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 09:27:39 PM by John Kavanaugh »

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