[Tom_Doak]

I believe the original Augusta layout was 6800 yards, not 6500.  And if you built a good homage to it you would have to bar the door to keep the pros away, they'd love to play it.

[Phil Benedict]

I believe the original Augusta layout was 6800 yards, not 6500.  And if you built a good homage to it you would have to bar the door to keep the pros away, they'd love to play it.

Tom,

How long would the pro tees be for such a course?

[Ryan Crago]

 I still don’t understand how two of golf’s greatest minds did not make a course that could withstand the test of time.

ryan,

i dont think that the designers can be faulted for not having the course "stand the test of time".

the interest of one of today's leading architects in building an "homage" to the original design and its predicted demand proves that in fact it does, or would, or perhaps should have.

[ed_getka]

Tom D,
   Would the land need to have the same elevation changes as at the original, or what do you think the main attributes of the land would need to be?

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan, I know the blame can not be place on Mackenzie or Jones. I just can't get over the fact that so little remains of the greatest collaboration to ever build a golf course.




Are there any must have books on the history of ANGC?

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, if you recreated the bunker on #10 shoved up against the current green, would the hole play like the original?  I don't know why they don't do that, it would be an easy change.  Maybe that proves more than anything - except maybe the added length of #7 - that MacKenzie is a relic of the past at ANGC.

The clay base of ANGC is a critical issue.  Cuscowilla's bunkers make the point.  I do love that golf course, but clay is just not the venue.

[Ryan Farrow]

And so we learn firm and fast protects par at Augusta, not the trees. Who wants to show up at ANGC tomorrow with some chainsaws and a real architect? Can it be ready next spring?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Ryan, I know the blame can not be place on Mackenzie or Jones. I just can't get over the fact that so little remains of the greatest collaboration to ever build a golf course.

That's not true.

All of the Macro architecture remains, save for # 7, # 10 and # 16.

As far as the greatest collaboration you allude to, that's also not  
true.  You should read, "The Making of The Masters" and other books on the golf course and tournament.

Are there any must have books on the history of ANGC?

There are, start with "The Making of the Masters"

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

If it was revived,  would it look something like this ?

The course had a few more central hazards once upon a time.

John Stiles,

If you take a closer look at the aerial photo and other photos circa 1934, I think you'll agree that what you describe as centerline hazards are really offset hazards.[/color]

[Ryan Farrow]

I read most of "Allister Mackenzie's Masterpiece" and have no idea what you are trying to infer. Is there something in particular that you would like to point out?

[John Kavanaugh]

And so we learn firm and fast protects par at Augusta, not the trees. Who wants to show up at ANGC tomorrow with some chainsaws and a real architect? Can it be ready next spring?

"Real Architect?" Doak needs to teach his interns some ethics.

[Mike Hendren]

I believe the original Augusta layout was 6800 yards, not 6500.  And if you built a good homage to it you would have to bar the door to keep the pros away, they'd love to play it.

There was a great Twilight Zone episode where a gambler died and went to heaven, where he quickly tired of winning every hand or spin.  Turns out he was in hell.

Same dynamic at your new Augusta.  The professionals would easily tire of shooting 61 and 62.

As for me, it would likely move into my personal top ten.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

I still don’t understand how two of golf’s greatest minds did not make a course that could withstand the test of time.

It barely withstood Mackenzie's funeral.  Fazio is no more to blame than Jones and Roberts.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I read most of "Allister Mackenzie's Masterpiece" and have no idea what you are trying to infer. Is there something in particular that you would like to point out?

Read "The Making of The Masters"

It gives a hole by hole description of the changes to each hole and will correct the misconceptions under which you are laboring.

[JSlonis]

I believe the original Augusta layout was 6800 yards, not 6500.  And if you built a good homage to it you would have to bar the door to keep the pros away, they'd love to play it.

There was a great Twilight Zone episode where a gambler died and went to heaven, where he quickly tired of winning every hand or spin.  Turns out he was in hell.

Same dynamic at your new Augusta.  The professionals would easily tire of shooting 61 and 62.

As for me, it would likely move into my personal top ten.

Mike

No one ever shot 61 or 62, why would they now?  During 1997, when Tiger blew away the field, and was hitting 300+ yard drives and PW into the 15th hole, even he didn't go that low. He averaged 4.5 under each day.  The next closest player was only 6 under for the entire tournament. Even before all these changes the pros weren't really tearing the place apart.

[Mike Hendren]

An homage to the original.  Look at this picture and tell me it doesn't have 61 or 62 written all over it, particularly with some accomodating bermuda greens.  Heck, even I'm not scared by 15 in this photograph.  Horton Smith was right about 7 also, way too easy.



Mike

[Ken Moum]

For those interested, there are a lot more excellent pics in the Ron Watts collection. Including these:

[Ken Moum]

Look at this picture and tell me it doesn't have 61 or 62 written all over it, particularly with some accomodating bermuda greens.

Well, remember, this was never a summer golf course, and they never played it on bermuda.

According to the guys who played prior to the bent conversion, the ryegrass greens has a lot of downslope grain, making them even faster than they were post-conversion.

I can't imagine that they were faster than today'sbent greens, but they weren't bermuda in the winter.

K

[Mike Hendren]

K,

The greens were bermuda until the conversion to bent around 1980 and the fairways remain bermuda, albeit overseeded with rye.


Mike

[Doug Spets]

While we're at it...let's bring the Mackenzie bunker back in play by putting the 10th green where he intended it...to the right of the 50-yard long bunker.  And let's drain the pond in front of 16 and play the original 16th...a half-pitching wedge to a green on the hillside green in front of the 6th tee.

And can we go back to calling #4 Palm?  Let's smooth out the Roberts Ledge on #9.  And restore the creek and remove the pond in front of 11.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Well, remember, this was never a summer golf course, and they never played it on bermuda.

Are you sure about that ?[/color]

According to the guys who played prior to the bent conversion, the ryegrass greens has a lot of downslope grain, making them even faster than they were post-conversion.

What guys ?[/color]

I can't imagine that they were faster than today'sbent greens, but they weren't bermuda in the winter.

Are you positive about that ?[/color]

[Jim Nugent]

In those pictures from the 1930's, what was the purpose of that fairway bunker on 18?  Something for the members?  Doesn't look like it played any role for the pro's.  

[Ken Moum]

K,

The greens were bermuda until the conversion to bent around 1980 and the fairways remain bermuda, albeit overseeded with rye.


Mike

I understand, but since it is a winter-only course, they never played on the bermuda surfaces, and by all accounts the the ryegrass was no more receptive than bent. In fact, it may well have been less receptive back in the 40s and 50s.

K

[Mike Hendren]

K,

They began overseeding the fairways and tees in the 70's:

http://www.augusta.com/masters/review1998/040798/Mowers1998.shtml

Mike

[Ken Moum]

Well, remember, this was never a summer golf course, and they never played it on bermuda.

Are you sure about that ?[/color]

According to the guys who played prior to the bent conversion, the ryegrass greens has a lot of downslope grain, making them even faster than they were post-conversion.

What guys ?[/color]

I can't imagine that they were faster than today'sbent greens, but they weren't bermuda in the winter.

Are you positive about that ?[/color]

I have to admit that in the 1970s they were slower than the bent the replaced them.

That the reference to the fast rye of the old days was from Sam Snead and and another player of that era.

Anyway, when the conversion was made in 1980, this http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/augusta/news/2001/03/28/greens_bentgrass/ indicates that they'd changed cultivars, and the result was unacceptably slow greens.

Ken

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