[Dan_Callahan]

The hole also reveals how robotic and inflexible many of today's modern players have become. They simply have one shot and don't waver from it. I couldn't believe my eyes when a year or two ago, Charles Howell seemed incapable of hitting a shot without spin. Was it two or three balls that he spun back into the water? He couldn't make the basic adjustment of taking more club, swinging slower, and playing for the center of the green. It exposed a real inability to adapt to the situation.

[A.G._Crockett]

For drama, I'll take 16 at Augusta because of three factors not yet mentioned:

1. "hang time"; watching the ball feed slowly down the hill toward the Sunday pin position, then gather speed and make a run at an ace as the crowd noise builds.

2. a really, really cool recovery possibility, a la Tiger last year, or DL III several years ago.  At Sawgrass the only way to recover from missing the green is to hole out.

3. the proximity and enthusiasm of the crowd around the green, which is unmatched.

17 at Sawgrass is more a relief than high drama on the level provided by 16 (and to a slightly lesser extent, 12) at Augusta.

[Jeff Fortson]

Having been at the 1996 Masters and 1995 Open Championship, I have to say that #12 ANGC and #17 TOC are my two picks for this title.

I have never seen more indecision and anxious behavior by pros then on the 12th tee at ANGC.  However, I have never seen more deep breaths taken by competitors then on the tee of #17 at TOC.  I'll have to ponder which one takes the title for me.


Jeff F.

[Marty Bonnar]

Utterly extraneous bunker. No threat, no saving graces, no need.

And as for #18, ridiculous extraneous mounding short right of the green. Bleeeuuuucccchhh.

FBD.

[Gene Greco]

I just can't accept it as the most dramatic hole.

12 and 16 at Augusta are my vote based simply on what's at stake with 16 getting the edge.

On Sunday at the Masters in both '95 and '96 I simply put my chair down in back of 16 and watched every group come through.

BTW:

      Since this is the 10th year anniversary of Norman's foldo to Faldo you will see me in every highlight of Norman's yank pull on #16.

I'm the handsome guy   right in back of Norman with my hands holding up my chin, too scared to move and too nervous to breathe.  

[Gene Greco]

Paul:

    Furthermore, nothing is as dramatic as the hole you'll be playing in a couple of weeks which USED to be on the PGA tour.

[Matt Kardash]

I always thought the 13th at TPC was somewhat similar to the 16th at augusta...and i think the 13th at TPC is better.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I don't think anyone has addressed the issue of drama with respect to the whole round, or tournament. Undoubtedly the the 17th at Sawgrass has most drama. Because it is the 17th/71st hole. Make the 12th at ANGC the 17th, then we have more drama, because Masters is more than Players. So drama is related to space and time..
One can then ask - Is being asked to play a shot, which even if executed perfectly, may end up in water or shrubs, dependent upon wind at given moment, what we want to do to test out best players on a 71st hole?
I say no. This is too close to Japanese game show mentality. If you're leading  a tournament, there should be a prudent option available, one which rules out double bogey.. without that we have Xtreme Golf...

[David Panzarasa]

"If you're leading  a tournament, there should be a prudent option available, one which rules out double bogey"
 I really dont agree with this statement. This is a par 3. If having a sand trap or a an area around the green that is safe is available at a par 3, it is not an option.... its a saving grace. Options are something you choose, no one in the history of the Masters (from what i know at least) has MEANT to hit into a sand trap on a par 3, if they did then yes that is an option, but I am sure no one has ever meant to hit it in the sand or off the green. They might aim at one spot because they know they could recover if hit poorly, but they never meant to hit it there! hence that is not an option! On a par 3 in these tourny's your going for the green, and the 17th at TPC is just so perfect and dramatic as they come because it is the 17th hole, and your taking a VERY basic shot. all you need to do is get on the green. YET, the island green plays tricks on everyones mind and just the thought of the tee shot has played a massive role in your shot and outcome. How perfect is that....and especially for someone that is leading, he needs to show why he is leading, why he should win and make that basic shot, yet it is not basic because of the impact it has and the major consequences it could have as well. I say this is a basic shot because it is, simple as that, anyone that has played it knows it is a large green and right in front of you, put it on or reap it! GREAT GREAT hole. not an amazing hole or hole you would want to see on courses around the world, but for the venue and the outcome of how important that hole is to the tourny, it is just perfect.

[A.G._Crockett]

I always thought the 13th at TPC was somewhat similar to the 16th at augusta...and i think the 13th at TPC is better.

I don't know why I had never noticed this before yesterday, but watching the telecast it was stunning to me how similar TPC 13 seemed to ANGC 16, with only slightly less green contour.  Almost a tribute hole...

[Anthony Butler]

17th at TPC is just so perfect and dramatic as they come because it is the 17th hole, and your taking a VERY basic shot. all you need to do is get on the green. YET, the island green plays tricks on everyones mind and just the thought of the tee shot has played a massive role in your shot and outcome.

During an ordinary round it is not much of a challenge. They maintain a higher collar and the green is nowhere near as hard. If you hit the green you stay on the green most times. Last time I played it, I landed 6ft from the back of the green and bumped up against the back fringe. During the TPC that's a 1-hopper into the water.

Come tournament time, the condition of the green effectively shrinks it by 4-6 ft. all the way around. Add the tournament pressure and some wind and it's a really tough hole by Sunday.

[Mark_Fine]

Perfect scoring conditions yesterday.  

Best players in the world playing the hole hitting short irons to a huge green.  

20 balls or so in the water!  

Maybe these guys aren't as good as they say they are?  Or else maybe the hole is just too good for them  

One more thing, there is a big difference between being down right "hard" and being "dramatic".  This hole is dramatic whether you like the hole or not.  How many holes do you see a professional stand on the tee visibly nervous and often confused as to what to do and then be elated after their shot finally finds the putting surface.  Not many!  

[Voytek Wilczak]

This hole examines the nerves of the player (professional and amateur alike) like no other.

As such, it is unique in all of golf, in a positive way.

[Jim Nugent]

This hole examines the nerves of the player (professional and amateur alike) like no other.

As such, it is unique in all of golf, in a positive way.

I agree the hole is dramatic.  I don't agree it is good.  It is a gimmick hole, that could be duplicated verbatim anywhere in the world.  Just build a pond and stick a green 140 yards from the shore.  Shoot, put it in Central Park, or Six Flags, and charge golfers $5 per shot at the green.  

The lack of options and penality disqualify it from any consideration of greatness, IMO.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

I admit when playing the course as a recreational golfer the 17th is in your head from the first tee. From the 10th onwards rarely did a minute go by without thinking about that shot. Pete gets in your head.

Man, Kerry is spot on.  If an architect can get into your head hours before you even play the hole than he has been successful in his design!

Put me down as someone who loves Sawgrass.  Forget the 17th, the whole back nine has great rhythm and a tremendous finishing four (anything could happen to anybody in the tournament over these holes - stuff of good golf).

JC  

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
I agree the hole might be relatively simple to replicate but why does that make it a bad hole?  Does a hole have to be complicated to be good?  Sometimes the simplest holes are the most complex.  

[mtp]

If this hole were the 18th.  Do you think it would add or detract from the drama  I always thought it would have been intriguing if this was the finish...

[Ryan Farrow]

This hole examines the nerves of the player (professional and amateur alike) like no other.

As such, it is unique in all of golf, in a positive way.

I agree the hole is dramatic.  I don't agree it is good.  It is a gimmick hole, that could be duplicated verbatim anywhere in the world.  Just build a pond and stick a green 140 yards from the shore.  Shoot, put it in Central Park, or Six Flags, and charge golfers $5 per shot at the green.  

The lack of options and penality disqualify it from any consideration of greatness, IMO.  

I think the story behind how it was actually conceived and its originality at the time doesn’t make it a gimmick hole. Although I feel that a lot of the newer courses that have island greens are gimmicks. I played this hole on a renditions course when I was not a good golfer (when I still shot in the 100's) and I hit the green twice. After watching so many pros hit the water today it definitely is one of the most dramatic holes. Did anyone else see the look on Sergio’s face when he and Singh were walking off the tee?

[Kyle Harris]

I don't agree about the lack of options.

Look at the variety of clubs, trajectories and shots hit into the green today... in a relatively calm wind.

Anything from pitching wedge to hard chipped 7-iron was tried with varying amounts of success.

How many approach shots on tour encourage that anymore?

[Matt Kardash]

Short par 3's don't have options in general, but that doesn't make them bad. This is a great hole on a great course. If you don't agree you are just wrong  

[Dan Moore]

I see the 17th at TPC as more theatrical than dramatic.  Fun and entertaining yes, but not necessarily dramatic.  

For drama I take the 12th at Augusta.  Its the the first real nerve bender of the year on Sunday of the first major.  For this Northerner its on the back nine of Augusta every year when the golf season really begins, when I start to get excited about the upcoming golf season.  Everything that comes before is just a tasty (or sometimes just a filling and not so tasty) appetizer.

[Jfaspen]

If this hole were the 18th.  Do you think it would add or detract from the drama  I always thought it would have been intriguing if this was the finish...

I think you'd see it labeled as gimicky..

I remember people were complaining about the relativly benign 18th at Congressional for the US open in 1997..

It'd add to the drama as a matter of necessity, but overall i think it might detract a bit from the legitimacy.  Esp given how good of a golf hole the current 18th at TPC is.

jf

[Jim Nugent]

I don't agree about the lack of options.

Look at the variety of clubs, trajectories and shots hit into the green today... in a relatively calm wind.

Anything from pitching wedge to hard chipped 7-iron was tried with varying amounts of success.

How many approach shots on tour encourage that anymore?

Well, the ground game is out.  Laying up is out.  Hitting away from the hazard is out.  Playing safe is out.  

You have one choice: fly your shot onto the green.  (I guess you could try skipping it along the top of the water.  Tough, as the green is elevated up above water level.)

IMO the options are zero.  So are any realistic chances of recovery.  

The crowds get into it -- even on TV I can hear the chorus of  "OOOOHH's" and "AHHHH's" when the ball is in flight.  For me it just adds to the circus atmosphere.  

[Kyle Harris]

Jim,

I see your point, but there is still a variety of options and trajectories. This game is played in three dimensions and for a hole with absolutely no apron or run-up option... that's still a lot of different things that can happen. The game is played in three dimensions, and all three are still critical on 17 at Sawgrass. Notice how a lot of the tension was after the ball hit the green?

Isn't the old cliche that when you played golf in Scotland, you didn't worry about the ball until it hit the ground? Seemed to be the same thing here.

If the options were zero, we'd see one club, one distance, etc. from every player - not such a variety of shots, trajectories and uses of the slopes on the green.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
There are lots of options you are missing.  You could choke, you could throw up on yourself, you could three putt the 16th hole thinking too much about your next tee shot, or you could come to the hole with the lead and make triple then hook your tee shot on 18 into the water and throw the tournament away.  There are lots of options    You need to think outside the box  

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