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TEPaul

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2006, 07:33:05 PM »
Wayne:

"Modern" is a word that's a bit too elusive to use in golf archtiecture, in my opinion. Tillinghast used the term all the time to describe the best of American architecture in the teens.

For Flynn, I'd stick with "Transition" architect because he really did seem to be that, certainly on most of his better flatter land courses with his bunkering schemes, particularly green-end.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 07:34:58 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2006, 07:41:29 PM »
Wayne,
You stated, "Interestingly, the courses with most aesthetic approaches were those by the seaside."  

All I was saying was that Thompson among others, was very good at designing aesthetically pleasing courses on sites that were not seaside.

You also stated that, "Flynn viewed their construction differently--placement, strategic influence and psychological impact were more important to him on these sites than fancy work."  

What did you mean by that statement?  I think you meant the same thing that I have been saying for years - on most of Flynn's sites "14 courses out of 50 is not most", Flynn did just what you said he did which is focus more on placement, strategic influence, etc and was not as concerned about building dramatic "fancy" looking bunkering.  

You said this yourself in your statement.  Don't be so defensive as I don't mean my comments in a negative way.  I love Flynn and have studied him and dozens of his courses for many many years.  He was a great architect but he wasn't perfect either.  Nor were any of the other guys.  

T_MacWood

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2006, 07:46:57 PM »
Colt and Simpson.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2006, 07:52:25 PM »
William Flynn.

Because of the photos on this site.

Will be diving in this spring.

Do I still have to read the book?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Ian Andrew

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2006, 08:41:32 PM »
Tom Paul,

"William Flynn, the Father of Modern Golf Architecture"

It's kind of like Neil Young being called the father of grunge. He is not a grunge artist, but his influence on this movement matters a great deal historically. William Flynn was far more than the precursor of modern architecture, he was a brilliant strategist that is responsible for a great number of very important courses. I would not lump him into the post war architecture, but they certainly paid attention to what he did and the way he thought.

Thompson employeed strategy and Flynn employed artistry, I just think they approached course design from completely different ends of the spectrum.


Micheal,

Yes, you have to read the book.


Tom MacWood,

Simpson is a great choice

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2006, 08:50:48 PM »
Ian,
I think you have your artistry and strategy reversed in your last post unless you just changed your mind  ;)

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2006, 09:10:35 PM »
In light of some recent pictures posted here, Walter Travis.
Among modern architects, Gil Hanse.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2006, 07:40:54 AM »
Based on photos on this site from the UK and the St. George's Hill Golf Club website I would say Colt.  I love his bunkering, especially the greenside and centerline on St. George's Hill and need to see it in person.

2nd choice would be Raynor because I lalso like the look of the engineered style.

3rd is Flynn, because if a couple of people would spend so much time and effort writing a book, he has to be good!  :)  

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2006, 07:50:01 AM »


Dave see them soon.  They appear to be getting a little work done...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 07:50:40 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Dale_McCallon

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2006, 08:14:01 AM »
Bobby Jones

John_Cullum

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2006, 09:44:10 AM »
I'll say Kelly Blake Moran. All of the photographs I have seen look great. Other architects seem impressed with what he does, and no one on here seems to voice much criticism of his work.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2006, 10:07:57 AM »
After reading this thread, I'm really itching to play some Flynn courses.  What feasible ones should a Connecticut yankee put on the top of his list?

If I remember correctly, someone here mentioned that Alister Mackenzie never actually visited Palmetto GC during its construction.  If so, I'd love to see more of his work.

For modern architecture, I'll take Coore & Crenshaw.  Having been so close to Old Sandwich and not knowing it raises its mystique even higher for me, and Chechessee Creek is perhaps the most appealing not-quite-mainstream course whith which I have become acquainted since I fell in with this band of (occasionally ;)) merry aficionadoes.

However, I'll see Flynn before C&C, if he is the rightful 'father of modern golf architecture.'
Senior Writer, GolfPass

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2006, 10:12:53 AM »
"All I was saying was that Thompson among others, was very good at designing aesthetically pleasing courses on sites that were not seaside."

Flynn's bunkering may have been more aesthetically pleasing on seaside courses than inland courses.  But that is not to say his inland courses are not aesthetically pleasing on the whole.  We were merely discussing the aesthetics of his hazards.  His naturalistic and minimalistic styles are to me quite appealing and when hiding the hand of man, aesthetic as well though subtly so.  

Where he used considerable earth moving and engineering, such as at Cascades, he made it look very natural--my favorite aesthetic.   Certainly, not all the bunkers, but there's no natural sand in that region of western Virginia.  His naturalism fooled you as you thought he laid the course out on the site in a very minimalistic fashion rather than the considerable engineering that was involved.  Likewise the engineering at Indian Creek.  That was entirely man-made yet looks natural.  So the overall aesthetic, not just the bunkering, was of a high level on all of Flynn's courses.


 "...I have been saying for years - on most of Flynn's sites "14 courses out of 50 is not most", Flynn did just what you said he did which is focus more on placement, strategic influence, etc and was not as concerned about building dramatic "fancy" looking bunkering."

Again, I said that on 14/50 courses all of Flynn's hazards were tremendously aesthetic.  I also said that on the other courses, the predominant outline of the bunkers were rather plain but that floor contours, the surrounds, some of the bunkering and other factors had high degrees of aestheticism.  And there are other aspects of the courses that are aesthetically pleasing, mostly the natural features on site such as streams, rock formations, overlooks that he would take you to, etc.  

Please tell me how Cape Breton Highlands, Capilano and St. George's bunkers are so much more aesthetic than Flynn's more prevalent bunker style.  From Ran's photographs it does not appear so to me.  Banff however does appear more aesthetic than Flynn's typical parkland style however when compared to Flynn's seaside bunkering, they don't appear to be considerably more so to me.  I know Ian has seen a lot of Thompson's work and I trust him when he says Thompson was more concerned with aesthetics than Flynn but he wasn't all the time if I can trust the sampling of Ran's photographs.  I don't know how Thompson wanted them maintained, but there are quite a few simple shapes.  Where Flynn had simple shapes, the surrounds were aesthetic with the grassing, for example Brookline, which has some of the best looking inland bunkers by Flynn.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2006, 10:18:44 AM »
Bobby Jones

Dale- to which course do you refer?  he built one in the 1930's in sone small town in Georgia, but the place has been changed so much I don't think you can call it a Bobby Jones design anymore....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2006, 10:19:47 AM »
How about Peachtree?  I don't know how much input he had nor how much it changed over the years since his passing.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2006, 10:28:59 AM »
Bobby Jones

Dale- to which course do you refer?  he built one in the 1930's in sone small town in Georgia, but the place has been changed so much I don't think you can call it a Bobby Jones design anymore....

I think Paul is referring to the course in Douglas. It seems Jones input there is just a rumor. I spoke with the club manager there a year or so ago, and he told me they didn't have any evidence of Jones involvement in the courses design. As I recall he said Jones knew one of the club founders very well, and that has somehow morphed into Jones getting credit for the design.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2006, 10:44:41 AM »
A few of the old guys that  I definetly want to see are Raynor, Maxwell & Tillinghast. Given the amount of their work, and how widely regarded that work is, I really want to see it live for myself.

On the modern side, I'm a Doak virgin. Given all the great work, I'm just not where he's worked that often. I hope to get to Pacific Dunes soon.

Integrity in the moment of choice

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2006, 02:13:57 PM »
Mike  Strantz
Jeff  Brauer
Tom Weiskopf   (saw 1)
Dave  Axland


Tom Simpson
Harry  Colt
Alex Findlay
Mike  DeVries
Herbert  Fowler

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2006, 03:01:53 PM »
"All I was saying was that Thompson among others, was very good at designing aesthetically pleasing courses on sites that were not seaside."

Flynn's bunkering may have been more aesthetically pleasing on seaside courses than inland courses.  But that is not to say his inland courses are not aesthetically pleasing on the whole.  We were merely discussing the aesthetics of his hazards.  His naturalistic and minimalistic styles are to me quite appealing and when hiding the hand of man, aesthetic as well though subtly so.  

Where he used considerable earth moving and engineering, such as at Cascades, he made it look very natural--my favorite aesthetic.   Certainly, not all the bunkers, but there's no natural sand in that region of western Virginia.  His naturalism fooled you as you thought he laid the course out on the site in a very minimalistic fashion rather than the considerable engineering that was involved.  Likewise the engineering at Indian Creek.  That was entirely man-made yet looks natural.  So the overall aesthetic, not just the bunkering, was of a high level on all of Flynn's courses.


 "...I have been saying for years - on most of Flynn's sites "14 courses out of 50 is not most", Flynn did just what you said he did which is focus more on placement, strategic influence, etc and was not as concerned about building dramatic "fancy" looking bunkering."

Again, I said that on 14/50 courses all of Flynn's hazards were tremendously aesthetic.  I also said that on the other courses, the predominant outline of the bunkers were rather plain but that floor contours, the surrounds, some of the bunkering and other factors had high degrees of aestheticism.  And there are other aspects of the courses that are aesthetically pleasing, mostly the natural features on site such as streams, rock formations, overlooks that he would take you to, etc.  

Please tell me how Cape Breton Highlands, Capilano and St. George's bunkers are so much more aesthetic than Flynn's more prevalent bunker style.  From Ran's photographs it does not appear so to me.  Banff however does appear more aesthetic than Flynn's typical parkland style however when compared to Flynn's seaside bunkering, they don't appear to be considerably more so to me.  I know Ian has seen a lot of Thompson's work and I trust him when he says Thompson was more concerned with aesthetics than Flynn but he wasn't all the time if I can trust the sampling of Ran's photographs.  I don't know how Thompson wanted them maintained, but there are quite a few simple shapes.  Where Flynn had simple shapes, the surrounds were aesthetic with the grassing, for example Brookline, which has some of the best looking inland bunkers by Flynn.

I don't mean to stick my nose into other people's debates and I understand the fact that the Shinnecock bunkers have been reffered to as "asthetically pleasing" . . .
I just thought I'd add these photos as a little visual evidence  . . .

#1


#11


#16


-Ted
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 03:02:30 PM by Ted Kramer »

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2006, 03:05:44 PM »
Ted,

Why did you have to post those awfully plain looking bunkers.  Man are they boring  ;D

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2006, 03:07:45 PM »
Ted,

Why did you have to post those awfully plain looking bunkers.  Man are they boring  ;D

I haven't seen many of the "Top However-many", but it is REALLY HARD for me to imagine a better golf course anywhere on this green Earth!!

-Ted

Tom Huckaby

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM »
Ted, the cool thing is if you go there, you don't have to imagine it at all... standing on the first tee you'll be staring right at it, out in the distance.

N
G
L
A

 ;D

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2006, 03:12:30 PM »
Ted, the cool thing is if you go there, you don't have to imagine it at all... standing on the first tee you'll be staring right at it, out in the distance.

N
G
L
A

 ;D

If I ever get the chance to play it I'll be glad to let you know how I think it compares.

-Ted

Tom Huckaby

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2006, 03:16:43 PM »
Ted, I know.  It was one hell of a privilege for me.  This was mainly directed at one of the many folks with whom this is a running argument.  They are both all-world great, and the preference for one over the other really is revelatory....

 ;D

TH

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2006, 05:06:47 PM »
Mike Nuzzo.
I hear he has a pretty neat project going in Texas.
Langford.
Skokie, West Bend, and Lawsonia leave me wanting for more.

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