[Kelly Blake Moran]

That's why they're called amateurs Jeff

I would love to having putting contests on an undualting practice green, but I don't think it is very practical for the daily use to just work on the stroke.  I saw Vijay working with some device on the pg at Pinehurst, just working on mechanics.  Short, flat putts.  

[cary lichtenstein]

I like em more flatish than undulating so I can work on my stroke when I need to.

[archie_struthers]

I'd certainly vote that putting greens have to be cared for and maintained like the greens on the course. All the good superintendents realize this and are diligent in this area.

You should definitely try to have a lot of flat areas for people to practiice, as Tom Doak related above. However, some of the great Himalayas' type putting greens can't be discounted as a value added attraction to the club.

I don't think replica greens to hit to are that important, in fact for me a real nice field, well marked for distances, might even be preferable. Old Marsh in Palm Beach Gardens is one of my favorites.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JeffWarne,

Evidently AWT disagreed as well.

Ridgewood in Paramus NJ has a huge and unique practice putting green complete with slopes and undulations.

I provides a representation of what the golfer can expect on the golf course.

Shouldn't the practice putting green prepare the golfer for what he's about to encounter on the golf course ?

Putting flat putts on the practice green won't do you much good on well undulated and sloped greens on the golf course, unless you like surprising the golfer.

Why wouldn't you want the golfer to be given the opportunity to practice on a putting surface that's representative of what he's going to encounter on the golf course ?

Archie,

As to hitting practice shots, a flagstick in the field is good enough for me.

I'm old enough to remember how I loved to practice with my shag bag, and would pace off the distance from a flag in a field and leave a set number of balls at different intervals.

As to chipping and pitching, I think a green other than the practice putting green should be used.   Balls pitched to a putting green cause too much damage and corrupt the putting surface

[redanman]

Good topic.  I certainly suppport practice greens being representative of course greens in composition, contour and speed.  I rarely see this, though.

Having been a member of four clubs over time I have seen this only at one.  At Lehigh we have two practice greens, one between 18 green and adjacent to 1 tee is just sloped at about 5-6% and has nothig to do with the greens on the course.  The other is so small and flat as to be useless.  Also the speeds are usually not correllative.

At the Cal Club in SF when I was a member we had a huge flat green out front of the clubhouse which was ornamental as much as anything. Contours?  HAH!  

It was a good place to drink and putt.  The putting green close to #1 tee was so small as to allow 3 people max to use it, you could hit no more than a 15 foot putt.

Let's just say I'd like to see greens representative to actually be of some use, but I can't/don't practice putt anymore so it is urely observational for me at this point.  I hit 3-4 long putts for general speed and then another half-dozen to refine speed and hope I putt OK that day, if I hit putts at all.

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
We have a problem I agree completely.
I like a practice green with gentle undulation and even areas with severe undulation if size  and money permits.
I've played Ridgewood and enjoyed its' practice area.

I was mainly referring to greens for chipping and pitching .
Knowing these are usually in addition to a putting green
,(thus potentially straining resources)if made to choose I would rather it not have severe undulations unless it provided another area that was relatively level to work on a basic shot.
hey the more elaborate the better if cost,land,and will are there,but include the basic area first.

[Jim Franklin]

At Five Farms we have two practice greens, one for the East and one for the West. The West green is flatter and great for practice, but the East really resembles some of the putts you will be facing that day as it is severely sloped. Since the Seniors Playeers is going to be here, I understand this green is being torn up. I don't know what is replacing it, but I shudder to think about it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Franklin,

What reason is being given with respect to tearing up what appears to be a very useful practice putting green that integrates well with the golf course ?

Jeff,

For pitching, it would seem that a flag in a closely mown area would be sufficient.  For chipping, it would seem logical to duplicate the putting surfaces, but, these features-facilities tend to be luxuries dependent upon the availability and configuration of the land, clubhouse and golf course.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I prefer to construct practise greens with plenty of twists and turns so the players can not only adjust to the speed of the turf but also to get a feeling for  the break of the greens on the course. The green is ideally at least 1000m2 preferably 50m x 20m which allows plenty of room for some “greens in greens”.
The teaching pro will usually want a part of the green that’s perfectly flat where they can train their students. The better players also  prefer a flat part to check if their putting stroke is going in the  direction they expect.

I always make a separate chipping and pitching green.
Noone can practise putting seriously on a “pitted” pitch marked surface.

Recently I made a separate “bunker” green with 3 different bunker types where shots can be played to uphill , flat und downhill surfaces.

[Jason Blasberg]

I would love to having putting contests on an undualting practice green . . .

Kelly:

At LL I putted it off the practice green a couple of times, some serious undulation there!  The practice green was also a sign of what was ahead.  While I think I had about 22 putts on the front nine I smiled all the way around and adjusted nicely on the back.    

I personally think a practice green should prepare you for both the speed and undulation that awaits on the course.

Jason  

[RJ_Daley]

Over 10000sq ft ought to have about half to 3/4 with contour, and enough flattish area for straight putts of about 12-15ft, IMHO.

I feel lucky that my two home courses have about the best short game facilities of anywhere else I've played.  Wild Horse's oval putting green is a marvel of speed, contour, and enough flatish areas also. WH also has a separate short game, chipping-bunker blast green on a sloping area that allows for fall away or into slope work.  Putting around the clock of the WH oval can produce some neat quarter games...

My home Brown County golf course has two good putting greens of about 3500-4000sqft, and a short game bunkered green about 3000sqft, with on large bunkers flashed up into the green from on high for fall away rolls, and one from well lower than the putting surface with substantial flash with roll out into slope.  Then there are open ends on two sides from fw and rough turf cuts, with into the slope and fall away from other side.  Surrounds can be approached from about 40-50 yards.  

So, why is my short game not sparkling?

[Dan Moore]

Ideally I think practice greens should come in two types.  

One for pre-round warm up should emulate what the greens on the course are like in terms of speed and contour.  As someone who plays many different courses getting a feel for the speed is most important right before a round.  Hitting putts up and down a modest slope is what works best for me to get the speed.  

For every day practice something fairly flat is better to work on mechanics and alignment.  You just can't work on your aim and alignment on big breaking putts.  It doesn't hurt to have an area with countour to practice speed up and down hill and some side hill stuff, but not at the expense a flat area.  

Chipping and bunker areas simply can't be maintained like putting greens due to ball marks so they need to be seperate They are best if they offer a variety of shots, a bunker, some rough, areas to hit longer chips and short side pitches to tight hole locations.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

I hate practicing putting...but I love playing a few different putting games with my buddies. I'm a fan of practice putting greens with lots of movement and I could care less about hitting a bunch of straight 5 footers before I go on the course. Put me in the camp of preferring interesting practice greens that are fun all by themselves regardless if they share the same contours as the golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

Should the movement be subtle or drastic?

Rolling Green has a wonderfully subtle practice green with a lot of movement in it that isn't apparent. Very fun.

[Jordan Wall]

Why not both Kyle??

Wouldnt that be best??

Or think it this way.  Why have subtle undulations if the course's is drastic and vice versa??

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Cost and economy of space first of all.

To have both would require a large amount of room and a large surface to maintain.

[Jordan Wall]

Kyle, its pointless no matter the cost and the mainting part.

Golf is hard enough correct??

So why fool the average golfer with a weird putting green nothing like the course??

Putting green=Course greens
Thats how it should work

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Cost is VERY MUCH a factor when considering such things. Ultimately, cost will trickle down to the golfer in some form, be they green fees, membership dues, range costs, or cart costs.

To maintain a large and difficult to maintain putting green will ultimately affect everyone playing the course in some form, even if say... 20% fully appreciate the practice green.

Compromises have to be made somewhere.

[Jim Franklin]

Patrick -

Since new tees are being added, some of our practice area is being remodled and apparently the East Course's practice green is being moved. I hope it's new home is similar to its existing one because I need all the help I can get on putting those greens. Time will tell what becomes of this, but I have talked to several members and none agrees with me. Oh well.

[RJ_Daley]

Of course one of the great putting greens of all time is the Himalayas at St. Andrews.  There convenes not only putting practice, but a whole "ladies club" and a genteel society.  

Bunkerhill, (Axeland and Proctor) built an homage to Himalayas at their other Nebraska course, Bayside in Ogallala.  An expansive dramatically contoured putting green, sited just below an impressive log construction clubhouse with wrap around veranda, that backdrops to a vista across a beautiful lake, is a site to behold.  

However, as Kyle notes about costs, Bayside can't afford to maintain that asset.  So, it has gone to pot.  Bayside still has a superior practice facility and a good practice putting green, but the Himalaya's green has gone neglected.  They don't get enough clientele nor collect enough fees to keep it up.  It sits there sort of lonely and sad.

Putting greens can add a great deal of ambiance to a good club.  I think back in particular to a scene I observed at Charleston CC on a weekday afternoon.  A group of 20 somethings came in after work hours and convened around that putting green, staged just below a fine looking clubhouse and overlooking the 18th hole, and had what appeared to be a regular putting contest.  Men and women paired with a relaxing refreshment, and sociable conversation whilst puttering around, so to speak.  That certainly beats the atmosphere of a dark and enclosed gin mill for socialization.  

[tonyt]

The speed of a practice putting green must be as identical as possible to that which is typical of the main course. Because given their use 90% of the time as a warm up, there is no acclimatising if it isn't compatible. If the speeds are different, it would be as useful as stretching hamstring muscles before playing chess.

The size of a putting green must be adequate to accommodate groups of four in a field of two tee starts all spending 2-10 minutes each on it before going out.

The putting green must have enough level or close to level playing area to make for uncomplicated warming up and also the general practice of putting that is more technique and learning repetition than reading lines based.

The putting green must have enough internal movement and break in some areas to hold the interest of those practicing and encourage the use of it for juniors and keen to improve players for hours at a time.

The chipping/pitching areas must have an adequately sized green and variety of shots and angles that can be played to it for the same reason as above.

Overall, if your juniors get bored in less than half an hour on the two combined, they must be poor.

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  The same fate as Bayside's fell to my Himalayas putting green at High Pointe.  Management did not understand the attraction, and abandoned half of it.  

I still think they were stretching for a reason -- out of a $250,000 maintenance budget, they could not have been spending more than $5 to $10K on that green, and it might have attracted more people to the course.

[RJ_Daley]

Interesting Tom.  What are your feelings about the type of course for such a center piece setting of a practice putting green?  Private clubs with strong membership relationships and a laid back atmosphere seem to be conducive to raising the interest in a quality putting green.  Would you think High Pointe could have cultivated that sort of a sociable atmosphere?  

Small public courses with loyal clientele seem to me to be the best alternative situation to the private course.  My home course here has that sort of a strong local public sociable following, as does Wild Horse.  

Also, doesn't Pinehurst #2 have a rather unique atmosphere?

I do think the concept of a fine putting green should play into a formula for success in course development.

[Doug Siebert]

My ideal practice putting green would actually be two separate greens (more on this later)  The first would be rather small and as dead flat as it is possible to construct, where a lot of holes would be cut to accomodate plenty of players practicing short straight in putts for warm up before teeing off.  It would be as close to the #1 tee as possible.

The second green would be larger and vary from mild to wild to Himalayas in various parts to make practice fun so lazy people like me who never practice might do so once in a while.  Then I'd just need to figure out how to make range time and short game practice fun (range time was fun when I was 13 and tried to hit the guy in the tractor covered by a cage, but that somehow seems a bit immature these days )

If the course makes an effort to try to maintain all its greens at the same speed, then the practice greens should be maintained that way as well, at least the non-flat one.  The flat warmup green might see too much traffic to allow it to be maintained as fast but since players would be practicing short flat putts having it be slower wouldn't be a big deal.  They'd have to be separate greens to allow them to be maintained at different speeds, if the flat one can be maintained at the same speed as everything else then the two greens could be combined....though having the warmup green 10 steps from the #1 tee is a great feature I enjoy at my home course and miss on most other courses.

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