Tom Huckaby,

For the reasons that Shivas and I cited on the 18th at Merion.

Patrick - you miss the point - sure the sky is falling FOR YOU.  It's just not FOR ME.

Get it?

TH

"What event made you aware of the new age of distance?"

There is no question in my mind, none whatsoever, that the event that made me aware of the new age of distance was the very same event that made our golf ruling body, in I&B and other things, the USGA, aware that the new age of distance was somewhere near at hand. And the real irony to so much of what we talk about and worry about today distance-wise in golf is that this event was pretty much totally pre-technology, as we think of it today.

It was Davis Love III at the Walker Cup at PVGC. When was that---1985?

By the time Love had gone through the 5th or 6th hole in his one and only singles match the extent of it had completely set-in and it was really palpable. And I'm talking about not just me or us but the USGA's officials.

So many of them were following him and I guess in retrospect it was pretty obvious why. His reputation for ultra extreme length had preceded him as that kind of thing always seems to in golf.

So they were curious as most are about distance in golf. But I can tell you they were in no way ready for what they saw. No way at all. If he'd been using a driver perhaps it would've been a bit more understandable but all he ever used were those Ping Berrilium irons (a 90 compression balata Titleist too).

After Love basically went over the 5th green from the tips with a 4 iron and after he flew his 1-iron way over the right corner on #6 from the tips (a direction his British opponent didn't even attempt with his driver) and as I was walking up the walkway to the 6th fairway right behind two USGA officials one said to the other "I just can't believe what I've seen here." The other said something like; "I can't either, I hope this isn't a window on the future."

Now, 20 years later, that's exactly what it was---a window on the future!

Daly at Crooked Stick and TOC was a lot later when much of the world first saw it. 1985 at the Walker Cup at PVGC with Love is when our regulatory body first saw it.

They even tried to get him up to the USGA to see if this was some kind of anomalie but Love actually had a very tender right wrist and he declined.

shivas:

Well hell, I've watched countless players hit it where you did on 16 Pasa.  Tiger himself wrapped a cute little three-wood around that corner both times I saw him, both times into the garden flat spot just short of the creek.  Most of the college boys had that shot, no problem.  Hell I myself have done that.  It's not that far at all - the key is to get the right amount of draw and hit the downside of the hill.  That one you had no right to be pissed about, that is unless you're mad because you want credit for pulling off a great drive and didn't get it.    Normal tee shot there is some sort of layup to the top of the hill.  But it's wrong to say the approach is "ruined" from where Tiger got it to... I'd guess golfers have been trying to do that - and succeeding  - since the days of the Good Doctor himself.

Re 12 Cypress, I see no issues.  It remains an all-world golf hole.

I'm beginning to see here that the problem is indeed you.  You really do hit the ball too far.  OK man, if this does keep pissing you off, you do know how to fix things.

 

But these days, Merion is known in some quarters as a great course rendered obsolete by equipment.

Some say if Hogan had that shot today into the 18th, he would only need a wedge.

"What people fail to remember is that in 1950, the last day of the U.S. Open was two rounds," Fay said. "It’s true that Ben Hogan hit 1-iron into the 72nd hole. But earlier in the day, when he was finishing up his third round, he hit a 6-iron into that green."

Hogan no doubt was fatigued on the 36th hole of the day, and couldn’t get his drive down the hill.

Is Fay correct?

shivas:  fair enough, that helps.  But the fact remains that Big Jack hit less club 33.5 years ago than I would today.  See, I expect a certain growth in golf - it's always happened - so I'd expect to hit the same or even less club here this many years later, even though Jack was the Tiger/Hank Kuehne of his day.  Maybe I have that wrong.  In any case the fact I hit more club even now is powerful to me that the problem remains only you big hitters.

Because you see, although I do accept the differences are far more in driver length than irons, well... the fact is I still don't drive it close to what Jack did back then, let alone George Bayer, Bobby Jones, hell how far do you want me to go back?

Nope, the problem is YOU.  Us average guys play the right game, a normal game, with no instances like this to get us pissed off.

So again I say, if it pisses you off, you know what to do.  Eliminate that horrible advantage you have.  It's quite easy to do.

 

Quote

But these days, Merion is known in some quarters as a great course rendered obsolete by equipment.

Some say if Hogan had that shot today into the 18th, he would only need a wedge.

"What people fail to remember is that in 1950, the last day of the U.S. Open was two rounds," Fay said. "It’s true that Ben Hogan hit 1-iron into the 72nd hole. But earlier in the day, when he was finishing up his third round, he hit a 6-iron into that green."

Hogan no doubt was fatigued on the 36th hole of the day, and couldn’t get his drive down the hill.

Is Fay correct?

Kevin,

I seriously doubt that account.

36 holes a day was nothing for the top players in the world.
Especially when they were playing their best golf against all of their competitors at a U.S. Open.

To allege that Hogan was 4-5 clublengths shorter in the afternoon, when the course had dried from the morning dew and/or syringing is more than a stretch.

Even if Hogan hit a 6-iron in the morning, he was 4 clubs shorter than Shivas and a few shorter than me.

Tom Huckaby,

Are you only gullible when the information supports your position ?  [/color]

Pat:

You of all people should not doubt that Hogan in 1950, in his first Open after his brutal accident and recovery, was extremely tired after 35 holes around Merion and couldn't hit it very far.  He was hitting his 1-iron off a downhill lie from about 185 yards; if he wasn't tired that would go 25 yards over the green.  Shivas would be hitting a 7-iron from that plaque today.

I am not sure what iron Hogan hit in the third round, but it wouldn't surprise me if he hit a 6-iron there on other days.

Tom Doak,

5 club lengths is beyond tired.

My problem with distance didn't occur between the 1st and 36th hole, my problem began on the first hole and continued through all 36.  There wasn't a deterioration during the round, and if there was, it certainly wasn't 5 club lengths.

Despite his accident, he was playing exceptionally, enough to be beating the best players in the world, and you can't do that when you're dead tired and the rest of the field is unaffected.

But, you're right about one thing, off of a downhill lie Shivas would probably have hit a 7-iron from that spot, and more likely a wedge from his normal drive.
And, Shivas isn't the golfer that Hogan was.
High Tech, not Shivas's talent produces that length.

I played the 18th at Merion for the first time, about 4 years ago.
My recollection is that we teed off from about 460, as opposed to the 505 figure used in the amateur. Conditions were firm and dry, and I hit what was probably my best drive of the day. I think my approach was from about 150-155, if my memory is accurate. And typical of my game, I think I bogeyed the hole. I'm certainly not amongst the best golfers on this site, but when the mood strikes, I can spank it halfway decently.

I may be throwing cold water on a cherished memory.  I have another memory of that shot, or actually Jack describing it in Sports Illustrated or some other national publication.  My memory is that he ruefully admitted he did not hit the shot well.  He said he got lucky with how it turned out, as has happened to all of us at one time or other.

He did hit the shot well, because he made a small adjustment to his swing on the downswing (figuring out that he needed to make the adjustment half way through the swing).  That is how he has described the shot countless times.  

A big difference with irons for most of the tour (excluding a few like Tiger who's specs are closer to old-school) is that lofts on todays irons are stronger, and shaft lengths are longer (by 0.5" or more per club).  

If Hogan did in fact hit a six iron to 18 in the 3rd round, then the club he used was similar to today's 8 iron.

TEPaul,

What you're missing is that Hogan was 215 yard from the center of the green after his drive.

A drive to a fairway that is downhill from the tee.

Years ago, when I played the same tees, I was much closer than 215 yards.  Shivas is telling you he was only 145 yards, which means that he hit his drive 70 yards FARTHER than HOGAN.

Hogan was a far, far, far better ball striker than Shivas.
But, it's been technology that has changed the distances players hit the ball, not talent.

That's the revelation.

Kevin Reilly,

I have MacGregor irons from the 50's, Tommy Armour's and some old colorchromes too.  Today's 8-iron is NOT the same as a 6-iron from the 50's.  In 1985 when I switched from my MacGregor's to Ping Eye 2's, I was shorter with the Eye 2's, especially from the rough.  

With the same steel shafts, there might be a club difference, at most, in today's irons versus those in the 60's.

Hogan did hit 6 iron in the morning, and there is debate as to whether he hit 1 or 2 iron in the afternoon, or some combination of 1 iron loft with 2 iron length.

Patrick,

You should know that because of the terrain on the 18th at Merion the difference between a drive ending at 215 (the top of the hill) and a drive ending at 145 (close to the bottom of the hill) would not be nearly 70 yards on a flat hole. If Shivas was able to carry the ball to 200 or 205 and get it running down the hill with some speed, the only thing that'll stop it before 145 is the rough. It's also very likely Hogan flew his ball to 220 or 225 and because the actual slope at that yardage is towards the tee it may have only rolled that short distance. If Shivas gets the ball on the correct line (right edge of fairway as it goes over the hill) there is no reason for it to not go that far. The real trouble is, how do you get it on the green from down there? Well Shiv, did you hit the green?