[BCrosby]

There are a number of older Ross courses that have short, drivable par 4's. Roaring Gap and Pinhurst No. 1 come to mind. There are par 4's on those courses that can't be much longer than 230 or so.

Another is no. 2 at TCC. It plays as a par 3 in competitions, but as a 240 yard par four for member play.

Bob

[archie_struthers]

If you ever get a chance to play the West course at Merion, don't miss it, it is an architectural dream.  Some fabulous ideas incorporated into a small package.

The 12th hole plays about 240-250 woth no wind. This being said if you hit it over the green when its firm and fast, forgettaboutit!!!  You are more likely to make five than three.
It's really a rubiks cube.


There ob/lost ball to the left, a small bailout on the right. Nothing short of a perfectly calibrated shot works. The green is really diabolical, yet without elephant burial mounds as putting hazards, slope and speed are the antagonists.

One of the most interesting short par fours I've ever seen.

[PThomas]

haven't been there yet , but doesn't Prestwick finish with a  couple of short 4s?

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - 16 and 18 at Prestwick are both shorties, but each is in the 285 range.  So short yes, but no contender in this battle.  17 is the famous Alps.  15 is about the hardest 350 yard hole one will ever see - it's not called "narrows" for nothing.

TH

[wsmorrison]

Maybe the printer got it wrong.  I agree, there is no justification I can see for calling it a par 4.  I guess the state association only rates and slopes the course and has nothing to do with allocating par, is that right?

[wsmorrison]

Archie,

The 12th at Merion is a real throwback hole without bunkers.  The raised green has a front like the prow of a ship.  It is a great green and a terrific hole but is not so short at 355 yards long.

[Tom Huckaby]

Maybe the printer got it wrong.  I agree, there is no justification I can see for calling it a par 4.  I guess the state association only rates and slopes the course and has nothing to do with allocating par, is that right?

That is correct - courses can put whatever the hell they want on scorecards, and often do.  

[Jordan Wall]

How come all the greens are round?

Aren't you suppose to be at school?  Or have they given you the week off to prepare for the big game this weekend?

Yep, I was at school.  The greens are not all round, but it just is that way on the picture-well, actually I dont know why, but they are.

And come on guys, it is fun to call it a par four, whether itplays like one or not.  You could make an argument for some of the 490ish yard holes being par-4's, not par-5's, and this is just the same.  We should have a real competition on this hole as a big GCA group and see if there are more bogeys or birdies made.  I'm guessing more bogeys, believe it or not!

[Greg Holland]

Like Bob said, Greensboro CC has one.  No. 13 is 260 yards from the tips, but it plays uphill.  The drive must carry about 140 yards over a pond, then the fairway slopes up the hill to the green, which is probably elevated at least 20 feet above  tee level.  There are bunkers in front of and to the right of the green, a deep swale to the left, and a fall-off behind the green (with OB lurking about 20 yards behind).  The green is probably the most contoured on the course.  Great temptation and risk/reward.

[paul cowley]

For a modern era entry, I would nominate one of my own...the 14th hole at Orchard Creek, Golf Digest's 'Best new Bargain' of 2001....256 yds and 30' uphill with water on the right ...some consider it the best of the 18.....personally I think it is the most fun, as I consider the best hole to be the following one ...#15, a 260 yd par 3.

[Craig_Rokke]

Galen Hall CC near Reading, PA may have the shortest one I've played. A slightly uphill hole, It can be driven with a strong drive. There are some bunkers fronting the green though. I can't remember what number hole it is, but I would put the yardage at about 250-260.

[paul cowley]

....but then again, #13 isn't bad either ....a 474 yd par 4 that precedes the 256 yd par 4....natural quirk is hard to find .

[Ryan Crago]

Paul,

interesting... how does the strategy vary between the 2 holes?  i mean, other than avoiding the water on the par 4?  is the green more difficult on the par 4 than the par 3?  

i guess what i'm getting at is that hypothetically, the strategy could be exactly the same for each hole for the mid-handicapper (or others!)... which lends to the old argument of the legitamcy of assigning PAR values.

rc.

[Sean Leary]

Jordan,

 I haven't played the hole, but is there anything about the hole that makes it a par 4 rather than a par 3?  It just doesn't make sense that on that course they would call a 240 yard hole a par three and that one a par 4.  Are you sure it just isn't a typo on the card?

[Jordan Wall]

Positive.  Its not all uphill, really.  Actually the hole is pretty flat.  And I have no clue why they have a 240 yard par three.  Ask the locals, even they dont understand it.  I will say one thing though, the hole is usually into the wind.

[Tom Huckaby]

The locals are crazy like foxes, I think... here they have a group of golf nuts conjecturing and debating about a course they might not otherwise give a moment's notice... I doubt this is the first time this has happened.  Who wouldn't want to see what's what about a 172 yard "par four"?

Let's just do keep in mind one thing:  what's printed on a scorecard is pretty meaningless.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

Its not meaningless in a match.  If you think its easy, then I'll tell you that in one tournament with 60 plus golfers there were 13 bogeys, and just 8 birdies.  Of course that was a JV tourney, so I didnt play, but it shows you the hole is hard (my best friend played in it and parred the hole).  Oh there was one eagle too, I think.  Maybe two, actually.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan:  you're missing the point.  No one - and certainly not me - is saying the hole is easy.  I have no doubt far more 5s and 6s are made on the hole than 2s and 3s, even by good golfers.  I also have no doubt that in tournament play, many players do lay up - far more than go for it, even.

None of that makes it a par 4.

To make it a par 4, absent something in the way preventing access to the green, the target would have to be SO small, surrounded by hazards of such extreme severity, that the scratch golfer would never reasonably go for the green.  At 172 yards - not all that long of a shot - this just is very hard to believe.  The diagram doesn't help matters, either - one lake short and right, one bunker, not all that small of a green... It's just not adding up.

It would go down as a VERY hard par three, for sure.  I just can't see making it a two-shot hole for the scratch.

Interestingly, it almost surely would be for the bogey.  But par figures are far more often based on the scratch, which is understandable given the most-often used definition of par.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

Tom, your missing MY point.  I was joking silly.

I dont think it should be a Par-4.  

But it is, and theres nothing I can change.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha!
Well done.

OK, just don't trust scorecards.

 

[Jordan Wall]

What I dont trust is whats written on the scorecards AFTER the round

 

[JSlonis]

The shortest I've played was the 3rd hole on Gullane #2.  The actual yardage is 237 yds, totally BLIND, straight up the VERY STEEP Gullane Hill.  It is difficult to hit the ball high enough with a 3 wood or driver to get the ball to carry up over the crest of the hill.  It's a wild hole.

On another note, the shortest "par 5" I've ever played is the 230 yd 5th hole at Pine Valley!

[Sean Leary]

Jamie,

The 5th at PV was my first thought when I saw this as well.
I can't believe how long that holes looks from the tee compared to the yardage. Can't believe it. Do you hit some sort of hybrid there?

[James Bennett]

Here is a group of short par 4's from courses that have hosted the Australian open.  One of them NLE as the hole has been lengthened

Commonwealth (Melbourne) hosted the 1967 Australian Open.  The first hole used to be a down-hill 260 yards.  (Unfortunately, the hole has since been extended into a dogleg with a further 80 yards or so added.  The green is now blind from the tee, I think. )

Victoria (Melbourne) has hosted the Australian Open back in 1962 and more recently in 2002.  The first hole is still a downhill hole of 255 yards, although the bunkering was toughened by Thompson/Wolveridge pre 1980.  Not sure what has happened since.

Royal Sydney has hosted many Aus Opens (Baddeley won a recent one as an amateur.  He putted unbelievabley well, fearless).  In 1969, Gary Player won the Oz open there.  The first hole was 263 yards long.  Not sure what has happened here in the recent re-work of Royal Sydney (the members referred to the makeover as 'Viagra' - it wasn't any longer but it was harder).

Lake Karrinyup (Perth) hosted at least 4 opens including 1968 (Nicklaus) and 1974 (Player).  The first hole was 251 yards long.

I recall Royal Queensland (1972 I think, won by JC Snead) also ahs a short par 4 first, although I think that was a longer hole of about 285 yards.  Not sure what is happening with this hole following on Mike Clayton's current re-work there.

And, since the President's Cup in 1999, the Royal melbourne composite course has started with a shorter 4, about 320 yards I think but a dog-leg left.  Sorry, can't tell you which hole on the east Course this hole is.

At the local level (Adelaide), a short course hills club (par 66)Mt Lofty has a couple of short but uphill par 4's of about 240 yards.  The first is steeply   uphill.  The ex-pro of that club described it following a visit to Augusta as placing a tee somewhere on the bottom of #10 at Augusta and placing the green up near the #10 tee.  The hole has certain coronary-related names.  It certainly tested the endeavour of supporters in any match-play event when a match went up the 19th.

Amazing how the really short 4's in this batch are all the first hole.  

James B

[Yancey_Beamer]

My favorite.
Cruden Bay,#8,Ardendraught,258 yards
The green is tucked away on a tiny plateau between two large dunes.
One of Simpson's favorite holes,he described it as "mischevious,subtle and provocative."
The pin appears much closer to the tee than it really is...

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