[cary lichtenstein]

1st at Pebble, 3 wood 9 iron, nothing special

[Andrew Summerell]

TOC #18, probably the hands down winner.

I've got to say I don't mind TOC #18, although I know it doesn't sound or look like much. It plays many different ways due to the weather & there is so much happening on the ground that I don't believe it needs bunkers.

[A_Clay_Man]

Shocking that 15 at Pebble has not been mentioned.

Is it irony or counter-intuitiveness that it's weakness WAS it's strength?

[Jason Blasberg]

Where's Pat Mucci with all this Pebble talk?  

[A_Clay_Man]

I sure wish you guys would articulate why 12 is so bad?

One dimensionality isnt enough, or, IMO, entirely accurate.

[AndrewB]

I agree with Tom Doak regarding the 17th at RCD and picking the 9th and 10th at TOC over the 18th.

Sean,

Why do you say the 16th at RCD?  I thought that hole offered an interesting choice in strategy off the tee and a challenging second shot, wherever you ended up.  The hole stuck in my mind as among the more interesting holes on the back nine.

[Philippe Binette]

Tom Doak: I would totally agree that the 17th at Crystal Downs is harder than the 18th at Cypress Point, and it might be almost as quirky ... but it's not nearly as bad of a golf hole.  If you don't hit it straight, you're dead...

If you don't hit it straight, you're dead... Not quite, Tom. Remember me...

Merry Christmas

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where's Pat Mucci with all this Pebble talk?  

You Rang ?

I've been thinking about the comments and the context in which the question was posed.

I was also thinking about # 18 at Pacific Dunes.

My first question is: How many of you have played that hole from the upper, back tee ?

How many have also played it from the lower, front tee.

What's your analysis on the differential in playing the hole from those two locations ?

Jason,

I'll get back to Pebble Beach shortly.[/color]

[Tim Bert]

When I visited Bandon in 2003, the PacDunes #18 tee was way up in the dunes on the left.  When I visited this year, it was a much shorter hole played from the right tee you are referencing.

From the back tee, I'm almost certain that I remember being able to give it everything I had with a driver and not worrying about going into the huge bunkering on the left.  This year, I hit a 7-wood into that same bunkering.  The four times I played the hole this year, I played it much worse than last time.  I kept getting into all kinds of trouble from the tee no matter what club I used.  The tee shot was much more demanding from the short tee in my opinion.

I think I made birdie (to shoot 39 on the back - one of my highlights from the first trip) and maybe a bogey the first time around.  This past trip, I think I posted a score of 8 or worse in 3 of my 4 rounds.

I preferred both the view from the top.  I also liked being able to get up there and let loose for my last tee shot of the round.  My opinion is probably unfortunately tainted by my scoring.

[AndrewB]

I think it is a poor hole because there is only one real play-go for it.  Laying up at the bottom is about as fun as kissing your sister.  The approach from the bottom is nearly as hard as going for it from the tee.  This hole struggles as a two shotter.  Better off moving the tee up and having a decent par 3.  Despite the pond on 17 I prefer that hole and the 18th is a good hole.  As a finishing trio these holes let the course down.

This hole is similar to #9 at Beau Desert except BD's is far better because of the bunkering, the through the green punishment and it is more reachable for more players.  

Interesting comments; thanks for the reply.

I certainly agree that laying up to the bottom leaves a really tough shot, but what about the semi-layup to the upper-left portion of the fairway (just short of the left fairway bunker)?  If I recall correctly, that leaves approximately 60-80 yards but is a tricky angle given the bunker guarding the front left of the green and the green sloping away from you to the right.  I like that position because you can expect to hit a good shot and get it close, but it's very easy to miss slighly and end up with a challenging up and down for par (which is even more fun).  I like my chances from there rather than who-knows-where after trying to hit a hard driver that runs up there.

To make it a par 3, though, I think you'd have to move the tee way up since the green is small and tricky.  I don't think the green suits an approach shot of over 200 yards.

17 doesn't make me think nearly as much as 16: just make sure you leave it short of the pond and hit your approach shot just left of the pin.  I too think 18 is a good hole as it narrows the entire way and has some interesting slopes on either side of the green to contend with if you miss it wide.

I'm not familiar with Beau Desert ...

To each is own though.  The finish certainly wouldn't stop me from playing RCD again!

Certainly not ... it is a great course.

[Ari Techner]

Not sure if Pacific Dunes counts as a top-10 course, though certainly a top-10 Modern, but the par-5 18th just seems to me to be an excuse for getting yardage on the scorecard and getting back to the snackshack/clubhouse. Couldn't say that about any other hole at Pacific Dunes.

Surprised to hear you say that.  18 is one of my favorite holes at PDunes If forced to come up with a weak hole (there isnt one imo) 18 wouldnt even enter my mind.  

Tom Doak,

If you dont mind, why did you decide to go with the 2 greens on #9?  I love the bottom green but I typically enjoy playing to the upper green more.  I have always wondered why you decided to do this.  

[Eamon Lynch]

I think the 17th on the Dunluce Course at Royal Portrush could stand unfavorable comparison with any. Take away the massive bunker to the right - which isn't really in play that much anyway - and it is pretty much a nothing par-5.

[Doug Siebert]

Shivas keeps knocking the poor 18th at TOC.  It is a rare example of a hole that has become much better due to modern technology.

[Punchbowl]

#'s 3 & 9 at Shinnecock.

[JESII]

#'s 3 & 9 at Shinnecock.

Really??

#3 seems to me to be a good strong hole, but #9 might be one of my favorite holes anywhere. What about it is weak?

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I hope you're enjoying the holiday season.  I agree with you about 3 and 9 at Shinnecock.  3 is the one hole on the golf course that is closest to the Macdonald original.  Flynn remodeled the green on the original location.  You can still make out the outline of the Macdonald green pad.  Flynn's green has shrunken a bit, especially a lobe front right that is no more.  I think it a very strong par 4 following the longest par 3 though not the most difficult.  Nine is a wonderful hole, beautifully bunkered (all Flynn) and the low profile green towards the clubhouse is a magnificent approach.  Flynn completely remodeled Macdonald's green in the original location but lowered it and saddled it into the hillside.  A wonderful remodeling.

Those few who think there is a weak hole at Shinnecock usually cite the 17th.  I don't see this at all.  The tee shot doesn't seem to set up well for me and I usually have a bunker shot; mostly from the right.

For full disclosure, this is my favorite course in the US and I don't think it has any weakness at all.  It may not have the waste areas it used to but it is the best test of golf I know yet enjoyable for all classes of golfers.  The reputation it has as brutally tough and not an everday course like its neighbor to the west is baffling to me.  Maybe the folks that think this way are playing too far back.  

I also think the natural looking beauty of the course may be matched but not exceeded.  It isn't along the coast, so it doesn't have that going for it like some recognized favorites, but it does appear perfectly in harmony with its surrounds.  I think the change in the bunker appearance detracts from a place like Cypress Point in this regard.  When the bunkers were first finished they looked like they've been there for 50 years.  Today they look too crisp and clean.  I think I just got off on a real tangent here.  Sorry 'bout that.

[ChipOat]

Punchbowl:

The approach to #3 at Shinnecock does seem underwhelming with a short/middle iron although from the back tee it's a long-enough shot that allowing for a "ground game run-up" seems ok.

#9 isn't everybody's favorite hole at SHGC, but "weak"?  If anything, "too severe" seems more like it to me.

If you don't like #3, why do you not also choose #12?

[Mike Hendren]

TOC #18, probably the hands down winner.

Shiv -

Have you played TOC?  

With your self proclaimed vaunted wedge game, I would think that a hole where you can blast driver, guaranteed to be in the fairway, followed by a half wedge shot where you have OB right and long, would be a nail biter for you, frought with the fear of blading that wedge into the Sweaters of Scotland shop ...

Mike

Mike, yes, I've played TOC.  And here's what makes #18 weak:

1.  Nary a bunker on a course where bunkers are the primary defense.

2.  You can hit it a mile to the left.  I can't think of a hole on a world-class golf course with less penalty -- or even potential penalty -- for driving it 50 yards offline than #18.

3.  It's got a cool name, granted, but frankly, the Valley of Sin isn't that big a deal once you've putted a few biarritz greens in your lifetime or putted at Lost Dunes.  

4.  It's practically fricking impossible to make a 5, even with noxious wedge play.  

That, Mike, is why the hole is "weak".
 

Shivas,

Apparently YOU made an 8 there!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=19043;start=msg338020#msg338020

Mike

[JESII]

Wayne,

I think tangents like that are some of the best stuff on here. Hope your family is well this Holiday season also.

Interesting facts about Shinny, I really love the course as well but have not 2% of the historical knowledge of it that you possess.

In talking to David Eger years ago about the course he felt #'s 9 and 10 were unfair holes and the biggest problem with the US Open being played there. This was in the late 90's, but I believe he was the USGA setup man in either 86 or 95, so he knows the course intimately. This also sheds some light on the view of fairness among the best players in the world.

About #17, in agreement with you I'd say it only looks weak next to #'s 7 and 11. In many conditions it probably demands a higher quality shot to get on the green than any of the other 3's out there. That alone may not make it the best hole but it should disqualify it from being the weakest.

[wsmorrison]

Kind of you to say so, Jim.  Thanks.  

Was Eger speaking of the blindness aspect as being unfair?  In any case, a man that would consider fairness lacking on 9 and 10 at SHGC is the wrong man to set up a golf course.  It seems like he's been listening to the touring pros too much    I think the wonder of where your approach (on 9) and tee shot (10) ends up adds to the enjoyability of the course.  I like blind shots if not over-used.  It would appear that Eger didn't figure out that the 10th (one of my favorites on the course) sets up the 11th, what I feel is the best short par 3 in golf.  He also failed to grasp that the uphill shot to 9 is a fabulous end note to the relatively flat front nine and gives a nice clue as to the topography to come.  The uphill nature of the approach to the saddled green on 9 makes the yardage difficult to determine and  club selection and trajectory such key components.  Fair?  Not even a consideration.  It is a test of golf and the same for everyone.  Fairness should not be part of any equation at all.  What's his phone number  

[JESII]

If I remember correctly his concern about #9 was the occasion when it plays extremely long (into a cold wind) and the shorter hitter ends up on the downslope with a 190 or 200 yard shot up to that green.

What was the line?  No, we're not trying to embarass the best players in the world, we're trying to identify them...

What did he think of Tiger and Vijay driving it over the left corner last year and pitching on from about 95 yards?

#10 I think was due to the distance the ball comes back away from the green if hit just short. See above qoute.

[wsmorrison]

Not that they suffice to demonstrate unfairness, they do not, but those are slightly better reasons than the blindness of the shots.

[Punchbowl]

I find the shot up to the ninth green just a bit random...I don't mind blind shots at all....but here....you never know whether you hit a good shot until you get up there...

[JESII]

In that vein, wouldn't any hole with that degree of elevation change from fairway to green be pretty random.

I personally think it's only random if you think your approach might actually finish close to the proper distance. I start with my expectations on the back apron and anything short of there is a bonus, really keeps your attitude on the bright side too.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I find the shot up to the ninth green just a bit random...I don't mind blind shots at all....but here....you never know whether you hit a good shot until you get up there...

Couldn't the same be said of  # 2, # 3, # 8, # 11, # 16 and # 18 at NGLA ?[/color]

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