[JSlonis]

There is a Berlin Farmer's Market & Auction located only a few miles from Pine Valley.

[Craig_Rokke]

How much do you guys think it will go for?

6 more days and the bidding has been pretty vigorous...

I have no clue what something like this will go for ($3,000? $5,000? Even more, I bet), but you can bet there'll be a mad dash for the finish on the last day. I hope that's not Yuengling spillage from his bar on the prints!

The bar owner should forward a nice bonus to Gene Greco!
 

[Craig_Rokke]

If  blueprints aren't your thing, you can always put a
$ 3,700,000 bid in on EBAY for the first house built at Pasatiempo, Marion Hollins guest house.

[ChipOat]

So is anybody going to drive to Clementon and look at this thing or is it going to trade away on E-bay without any GCA inspection?

I think Messrs. Paul, Morrison, Cirba, Malone and Slonis are among the closest Treehouse guys to PVGC.  

[wsmorrison]

Chip,

I'll go scout it out.  Who has contact information.  What's the guy's name and what bar in which town?  Tom Paul should go as well since he knows the material far better than I.  Maybe I should call Mr. Ott.  I hope Tom has.  I just tried to call Tom and left a message.  I'll try and speak with him tomorrow.

[Paul_Turner]

I wonder if the plan is an original, actually in Colt's hand?  Or a copy/print of the original.  There no way to tell unless it's examined.  Someone may end up paying way too much for a print of the original, eventhough it is from 1913.

It's certainly not a print of the one in the clubhouse, since the date and the titles are different. (Colt isn't mentioned on the plan in the clubhouse)

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I'd very much doubt that thing is a copy. To get something that size copied well enough to even remotely fool anyone would probably cost at least 20-30 times more than the seller paid for it at some local flea market. However, the latest bid prices are now over the cost of a really good copy even if a good collector could certainly tell the material likely wouldn't be that similar.

The survey itself is the same as the one in the clubhouse. Exactly the same directional arrow in exactly the same place, same line around the survey etc. From what I can see of it there looks to be some very minor differences on #17, #2 and #3 but very minor. It's hard to tell using photos of the one in the clubhouse because Crump marked that one up so much with his red lines. But I also have my own copies of the holes in Colt's hole by hole booklet.

I think the most interesting aspect of this item is that it has Colt's name in the title and the July date (after Colt left). The date on the one in the clubhouse (March 1913) is in the title though, not in the bottom left corner.

I would like to be able to go see this one for the simple reason that if there're some hole drawings (and hole features) on this one that are closer to the way the course got built or closer to Crump's red lines that of course could be very meaningful for Colt's part in the design of the course compared to what else has been available so far where there certainly are some real differences in feature sizes and placements between the blue and red lines.

I don't know how to find this guy but if someone can tell me how to contact him or get him in touch with me I'll go look at this if he'll let me. I have everything that's needed to compare it to everything that's relevent to it. Tell him if his article has certain features (in blue) that're much closer to the way the course got built (or to the red lines of the topo map in the clubhouse) his article could really sky-rocket in value for the simple reason it might go a long way to solving a decades old mystery of the details of, or of the extent of Colt's part in the design of the #1 course in the World.  

[wsmorrison]

I emailed the fellow that has the item up for auction and asked if I could come by and take a look at it.  If he allows me to do so, I said I wouldn't say anything about the item until the bidding is complete unless he'd like me to recommend someone at PVGC to bid on the item.  I'll see what his reply is.  Of course, Tom Paul is the ideal person to see the item given his knowledge of the architectural history known to date; greater than anybody else in all likelihood.

[TEPaul]

PaulT and Tom MacW;

The way you two have carried on in the past on here about Pine Valley's on-going sensitivty towards Harry Colt's potential part in the creation of PVGC, I'm surprised that neither of you have mentioned the PVGC just might out-bid anyone for this item and then destroy it!  

I guess we'll see about that as they are aware of this auction.  

[ForkaB]

I don't know how to find this guy but if someone can tell me how to contact him or get him in touch with me I'll go look at this if he'll let me. I have everything that's needed to compare it to everything that's relevent to it. Tell him if his article has certain features (in blue) that're much closer to the way the course got built (or to the red lines of the topo map in the clubhouse) his article could really sky-rocket in value for the simple reason it might go a long way to solving a decades old mystery of the details of, or of the extent of Colt's part in the design of the #1 course in the World.  

Tom

I told you how to find this guy in my post above.  Just go bar hopping in Clementon.  I am (and was) being completely serious.

PS--bring Wayne or Jamie or Mike or Mayday or Chip along with you too.  6 heads are always better than one--even yours.

Rich

[Paul_Turner]

Paul:

I'd very much doubt that thing is a copy. To get something that size copied well enough to even remotely fool anyone would probably cost at least 20-30 times more than the seller paid for it at some local flea market. However, the latest bid prices are now over the cost of a really good copy even if a good collector could certainly tell the material likely wouldn't be that similar.

The survey itself is the same as the one in the clubhouse. Exactly the same directional arrow in exactly the same place, same line around the survey etc. From what I can see of it there looks to be some very minor differences on #17, #2 and #3 but very minor. It's hard to tell using photos of the one in the clubhouse because Crump marked that one up so much with his red lines. But I also have my own copies of the holes in Colt's hole by hole booklet.

I think the most interesting aspect of this item is that it has Colt's name in the title and the July date (after Colt left). The date on the one in the clubhouse (March 1913) is in the title though, not in the bottom left corner.

I would like to be able to go see this one for the simple reason that if there're some hole drawings (and hole features) on this one that are closer to the way the course got built or closer to Crump's red lines that of course could be very meaningful for Colt's part in the design of the course compared to what else has been available so far where there certainly are some real differences in feature sizes and placements between the blue and red lines.

I don't know how to find this guy but if someone can tell me how to contact him or get him in touch with me I'll go look at this if he'll let me. I have everything that's needed to compare it to everything that's relevent to it. Tell him if his article has certain features (in blue) that're much closer to the way the course got built (or to the red lines of the topo map in the clubhouse) his article could really sky-rocket in value for the simple reason it might go a long way to solving a decades old mystery of the details of, or of the extent of Colt's part in the design of the #1 course in the World.  

I meant copied back in 1913, not now.

You can make out features for #2 and #3?  I can't make out anything.  Ony 17.

Of course, if I could afford it, I would doctor it to Colt's advantage

[Marty Bonnar]

Rather interestingly, I see a certain Mr J Kavanaugh's ebay 'nickname' in amongst the list of bidders. Come on, Barney, up that bid!

FBD.

[TEPaul]

"I meant copied back in 1913, not now."

Paul:

Copied from what back in 1913? I think there were a few copies of the same survey map made by the same survey company back in 1913 and Crump and Colt (and perhaps some others) worked on some of those various copies. I think this auction item is just one of them. The thing that's interesting to me is the survey map in the clubhouse and this one for auction I think are the same basic survey map from the same survey company but they have different titles on them that were put on them by the survey company. If that's true, think about it. That's pretty interesting.

To me this all seems pretty logical if one thinks about where George Crump was in his career in golf architecture in 1913. The fact is Crump only did one golf course but some don't seem to appreciate he was involved with PVGC practically every day for almost six years, and every day on the design and construction of the golf course. That right there makes a huge difference if one considers he didn't just buy the land and get an architect to design the course and then just got contractors to build the course to that design plan. That is just not the way Pine Valley's golf course was designed, constructed and created.

To get a glimmer of where Crump was in his involvement in designing and building the course in 1913 one needs to remember in President Howard Perrin's original letter of April 1, 1913 (three months before Colt arrived for his one and only visist) to potential members there was a proposal that eighteen members could design a hole each for the contribution of $1,000.

Crump knew as well as anyone he was completely untried and unknown as a golf architect in 1913. The feeling about him in architectural circles certainly seemed to be vastly different, though, in 1918 when he died suddenly at 46.

Tom MacWood asked me how well known Colt was at that time (I presume he meant in Philadelphia)? I don't really know but here's what one of Crump's closest friends at PVGC said about Colt in Jan. 1915;

"In order to prepare the very best design for the golf course, Mr Crump secured the services of that brilliant master golf architect, Mr H.S. Colt. of international fame."

So it doesn't sound like Father Simon Carr thought Colt was unknown, or at least it seems he was trying to act like he wasn't unknown. If that's what Carr felt and wrote, it's pretty logical to assume Crump felt the same way.

But that fact still does not explain exactly how the golf course was actually designed aand built in those five and more ensuing years after 1913. And that's where George Crump's part came in---obviously a part that was pretty prevalently recognized for what it was by not just the club but many others in architecture.

[Gene Greco]

Craig R:

    How does one know if I'm not already cut in on the action?

Or that not I'm using some phoney bar in Clementon as an underworld front for a purchasing/selling agent of golfing ephemera?

Better tell Wayne and the other Philly sleuths to put on their decoder rings and get to work fast!

[TEPaul]

I've just seen a scan of pieces of a few holes on this item (obviously whomever has it could only scan a couple of small pieces of the entire thing).

This item is not a copy of the topo survey map that hangs in the clubhouse (done by a local Jersey surveyor). It looks to me like this is something done by Colt probably after his return to England. This isn't a topo map---there're no contour lines on it. It looks to be a drawing of the entire course and from the pieces of the three holes I can see it looks to be a whole course rendering of the holes in Colt's hole by hole booklet that has been in the PVGC archives probably from the beginning.

Nevertheless this thing could be interesting in that it might better show the differences of some of the holes in the Colt hole by hole booklet in a sort of routing sense. One can only guess the directions of some of the holes in the booklet as you're only looking at them as totally separate entities.

For instance, Colt's apparent 14th hole in this item is identical to the 13th hole in his booklet but it doesn't go in the direction I thought it did. The direction it appears to go in is frankly very interesting but I ain't saying why just yet or not until I can look at this item. I just can't wait to see what the 15th hole looks like on this item or where it starts and where it ends!  

As to why there's a glitch between the hole numbers on 13 and 14 in the booklet it's hard to say without looking at this item. One thing that starts to happen, oddly, when you to look at and compare all this evolutionary stuff (drawings, routings etc) and including the textual descriptions and explanations left by Crump's friends through the entire project is it really does seem to become clearer and clearer what was going through Crump's mind on this course at any particular time from beginning to end as it all begins to jibe together. Amazing!

[T_MacWood]

TE
Colt was well-known to the cognoscente and anyone with close ties to Britain, but to the average American golfer he was not known--Macdonald and Travis were much better known.

That is why I don't believe Colt was hired as a publicity stunt or to drum up interest and investors. Crump really didn't need money or publicity, he already had both prior to hiring Colt. Colt was hired because he was the most qualified golf architect in the world, and Crump discovered early on he needed a qualified man. I suspect Colt's involvement at PV was arranged by Carter's, who it appears arranged all of the visits on his tour. No doubt they were billing him as the brilliant master architect.  

[ForkaB]

TE
Colt was well-known to the cognoscente and anyone with close ties to Britain, but to the average American golfer he was not known--Macdonald and Travis were much better known.

Tom

My grandfather was an above average American golfer in 1913 (club champion that year at Winchester CC), and I doubt if he had anything other than a very slight knowledge of Macdonald, Travis or Colt as architects.

We cognoscente(sic) often misoverestimate the knowledge and interests of our less well-read brethren......

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Maybe the average American golfer didn't know much of anything about Colt in 1913 but I'd hardly call George Crump the "average American golfer" in 1913. Don't forget two years prior to buying PVGC's land Crump journeyed to Europe and a good slice of that time was studying architecture. Crump kept no record about that trip I'm aware of but Joe Baker wrote about it years later. For instance Crump played against John Ball while over there and how could it be surprising if he met Colt while there, as architecture was what he went for? I've never seen any mention that Crump consulted with Macdonald before he went to Europe the way Wilson and committee did.

Although it's clear that Crump was somewhat of a novice when he began compared to what we think of today as a competent architect there's little question at all that as things began to coalesce in how PVGC was going to be created Crump did become the central cog in it all, and by that I mean architecturally. Whomever does not understand the extent of that, in my opinion, will just never really understand the creation of PVGC.

I did not say Crump hired Colt as a 'publicity stunt'. Those words are what you say I said. I said Crump may've hired Colt initially to promote the golf club and course that was to be PVGC. After-all Crump at least understood in 1913 that Colt was better known and certainly better qualified than he was at that point and that potential members would obviously feel that way. What I did say, and Jim Finegan said, is that the veracity of the $10,000 fee to Colt that Baker wrote about a number of decades after the fact seems questionable---particularly to an architect who only spent a week there and particularly to an architect who's drawings and plans really weren't followed carefully.

Other than that it's pretty obvious that Crump needed help in early 1913 and he sought it from Colt probably because of what he saw while in Europe (heathlands) in 1910. When one compares the first stick routing done to how the routing evolved with Colt's help that's pretty obvious.

But what I feel is very important to know and what I feel the true story of PVGC is about is both what Crump did before Colt got there and particularly what he did in the years after 1913 when he left to never return. The topo hanging in the clubhouse tells that story pretty well if one knows what to look for and how to compare it to what was happening there in the ensuing years.

This item for auction appears to be a design of the entire course by Colt (non topo). I think we'll see it's basically a whole course rendering of Colt's hole by hole booklet that's always been at PVGC.

As Finegan said, and I concur after seeing it, as does John Ott who sat beside me for a few hours while we looked at it and I drew it on legal paper, there are some significant differences from that booklet (and apparently this auction item rendering) and the way the course was built.

The reasons are obvious when you look at the red-lines on the topo map in the clubhouse and read the accounts of those who knew Crump best of what he did in the ensuing years (and intended to do had he lived).

In a sense, this auction item is sort of ironic in this entire saga. For anyone who looks at Colt's booklet the differences are noticeable to how the course was built and now this auction item turns up many decades later perhaps having departed from PVGC in 1913.  

If Crump only meant to construct the course to Colt's whole course drawing as this item obviously is as well as the holes in the hole by hole booklet, then obviously the holes in the booklet would be more like the course and Crump probably could've opened the entire course for play in 18 months as Wilson and Merion East did. If that was what Crump wanted to do and did then this auction item (Colt's whole course design scheme) would obviously still be in the PVGC archives or more likely on the wall of the clubhouse as is the one that George Crump continued to work on and use perhaps until Jan 1918 when he died suddenly. The fact that this item may've been lost immediately seems pretty indicative of its relevence to the construction of the course---eg it just wasn't used by Crump. But the one hanging on the wall of the clubhouse most certainly was used by Crump and probably for years. Just looking at the one hanging in the clubhouse tells the story of how the creation of the course evolved---that is if one knows what to look for which obviously very few ever did.

[A_Clay_Man]

Try to get this guy to make a contribution to Ran if this site is going not only endorse it's validity but advertise its sale.

[SPDB]

Adam - Since when does this site validate or advertise? Why on earth would this guy make a donation to GCA.com?

[Voytek Wilczak]

Try to get this guy to make a contribution to Ran if this site is going not only endorse it's validity but advertise its sale.

Huh???

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I know for fact that Percy Goodale was well aware of both Macdonald and Travis, and most likely vice versa. I agree he would not have know Colt or probably anything about golf architecture...it runs in the family.

TE
I did not claim Crump was the average American golfer or not aware of Colt; I'm simply saying your thought that Colt was not hired to give the project legitimacy or publicity or investors does not make sense. He hired Colt because he needed help in laying out the course. Colt happened to be in the country and he was also the best golf architect in the world.

As Tillinghast wrote at the time, they found out Colt was in N.America (most likely through Carters) and they contacted him, or his handlers, and made arrangements for him to come to Philadelphia. Before Colt left on his 1913 American visit he listed where he was going and PV (Philadelphia) was not one of his destinations.

[ChipOat]

Saloons in NJ are open on Sunday.  Did anybody get to Clementon today and see this thing?

[A_Clay_Man]

You guys show an unparalled spirit.

[wsmorrison]

Chip,

I spoke to the owner today and am working on it.  Hope to get a look before the holiday.

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