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Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2005, 02:37:17 AM »
Michael Dugger is right. To my mind, a golf course can be "easy", even "very easy", but never "too easy". What's wrong with enjoying a course upon which you can score well?

Cheers,
Darren

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2005, 10:58:49 AM »
My point is that the course is much harder for the middle-high handicapper than the scratch, relative to their respective handicaps.  Surely that is reflected in the relatively low course rating and high slope (Huck help me out here :) ).  Compare that with say, Pinehurst #2, with a high CR and relatively low slope.  

Sorry Pete - late to the dance here.  But yes, you have this exactly right.  A low course rating and high slope would mean that the course is easy for the scratch player and severely punishes the bogey player.

Which to me is the opposite of what a course should be all about....

Which might be why reviews of and takes on Tobacco Road spread so wildly?  That is, some love it, some hate it?

Heck I don't know, I've never been there.  But Pete did call my name and like Underdog, never fear, I am here.

 ;D

« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 10:59:16 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2005, 11:03:03 AM »
This is very interesting to me, and I have never thought of it this way.  Specifically, what features or factors on any course, including TR, would lead to a low CR and a relatively higher slope?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2005, 11:07:40 AM »
AGC:

This can get into very detailed specifics, which of course aren't needed here.  And never having played or seen TR, I can't even begin to guess what happens there.

BUT IN GENERAL, what would make this happen is hazards existing primarily where bogey will face them and scratch will not.  Think of bunkers/water/OB at 175-200 off of each tee, and stopping at that point.  They're right in bogey's landing area, and scratch flies right over them.  In addition to that, very severe greens effect bogey more (relative to scratch) so very wild greens would have this effect as well.  Finally if most or all of the approach shots are to tight/guarded targets, especially if a carry over any type of hazard is involved, then that too is going to be way harder for bogey than scratch - and the effect will be especially pronounced on a course of the "right" distance where these shots will be app. 170 in for bogey, which equates to 120 for scratch.  Those kill the bogey and no matter how tight the target or what is to be carried, are never that big of a deal for the scratch.

 I'm sure JV can give some other examples.  I could too if I had my guidebook handy, which I don't!

TH





« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 11:10:31 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2005, 11:18:46 AM »
Tom,
Thanks for the response, and let me shoot you a further question.  With the exception of the hazards/bunkers that are in play off the tee for the bogey golfer but not for the scratch, wouldn't the others (wild greens, tightly guarded targets) also raise the course rating?

Anybody got any ideas as to why TR would fit this description?  It seems to me that the difficulties are primarily visual, rather than execution-based.  There are not excessive forced carries that I remember.  
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brent Hutto

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2005, 11:18:53 AM »
Think of the eighteenth hole at Tobacco Road. The tee shot carry is uphill, blind, over a vertical wall and through a fairly narrow gap between trees and cartpath left and woods right. Depending on the tees, this carry is from 135 to just over 200 yards but plays slightly longer due to being uphill.

If you're capable of hitting your tee shot through that gap (and the effective opening gets wider the higher your trajectory) the fairway widens out and is even routed down the bottom of a trough that funnels the ball toward the center of the fairway.

A reasonably straight hitting player with a medium-to-long, high tee ball is only going to miss the fairway with a terrible (by his standards) shot. Someone who hits the ball lower and/or finds the blindness and the narrow opening frightening is quite likely to lose a golf ball. Stroke and distance, baby!

Likewise the second shot on that hole. If you hit the fairway at all you'll have a good lie and uncomplicated angle but the approach is blind and once again through a little gap in a ridge you're hitting across. Now anyone who knows approximately how far their mid-iron shot will travel uphill to the green and who doesn't have a low trajectory can hit it plus or minus 10 yards of distance and left or right up to maybe 15 yards of dispersion to have a putt or straightforward chip on a flattish green. If you substantially misjudge the distance or direction or if you tense up and skank the ball you'll end up with another blind recovery shot or potentially a lost ball. Stroke and distance again!

That Par 4 plays to about a 4.0 for a scratch golfer, maybe a 4.5 for a mid-handicapper and about a 5.5 for a 20-capper like me. Not a hard hole given two even mediocre shots that get up in the air and go a reasonable distance on a reasonable line. Two opportunities for a lost ball with worse than mediocre shots.

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2005, 11:22:48 AM »
Brent,
Good post; thanks.  I guess the best way to think about it (oversimplification, I know) is where the bad shot of each of the three ends up, and what options are left.  
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2005, 11:23:33 AM »
Tom,
Thanks for the response, and let me shoot you a further question.  With the exception of the hazards/bunkers that are in play off the tee for the bogey golfer but not for the scratch, wouldn't the others (wild greens, tightly guarded targets) also raise the course rating?

AGC:  the point is, each of those are going to be FAR MORE difficult for the bogey than they are for the scratch - and this effect is especially pronounced if they are of the "right" length (or close to such) that I mentioned before.  

So they will normally make for a somewhat high course rating relative to other courses, but ON THE COURSE IN QUESTION, will make for a VERY VERY high bogey rating, and thus a very high slope.   I think you know this (based on your question) but remember slope measures the difference between CR and BR.  So yes, the highest slopes are going to have extremes on each end... but an extreme on or other other can cause it as well.  I'm guessing at TR the bogey rating must be VERY high, which causes the high slope even with a CR that seems high relative to other courses.

Since you say TR has a "low" CR, My only guess is that they must have a lot of these "right" distances.  If a lot of the approaches are 170 for bogey, 120 for scratch, the tight/guarded targets are going to be killers for bogey but not so for scratch.  Think of it this way - bogey comes in with a wood, scratch with a wedge.  Does that illustrate it better?

TH

« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 11:28:08 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2005, 11:31:05 AM »
Got it, I think.

I can see this in relation to TR, especially.  However, I am going to choose to refuse to see that as a negative for a course that I am in love with.  That's one of the great things about this website; we don't have to let the facts confuse us after we have made up our minds. ;D
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2005, 11:33:41 AM »
AGC:  I have purposefully shied away from portraying this as anything but a statistical anomaly - my comments on what a course should be all about notwithstanding.   ;)

From what I see there is a LOT to love about TR.  I am well and truly bummed I couldn't make the event last weekend and see for myself.

And of course, please do also understand that a high slope doesn't mean it HAS to kill the bogey player - if he is SMART, he can play judiciously and not lose a ton of golf balls or shoot his weight.  The problem is, in course rating we're not allowed to consider the smart bogey golfer, since no offense but that is one rare animal indeed.

 ;D ;D ;D

Mike Benham

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2005, 11:37:41 AM »
I commented to someone shortly after the round that as most courses do, TR recommends tees based on the golfers handicap.  At TR, I think that is the wrong premise, it should be based on how far they carry their tee ball.  

I know plenty of single digit handicappers that can bump their ball around many "difficult" courses but would struggle from the plowshare (or spade, ax, or combine, whatever farm instrument tee marker we played from ;) ).

And as Pete noted, and I wasn't clear in my post, the greens at TR , for the most part, kick your ball onto the green, with the bowls and saddles.  As Bill McBride showed, there is more than one way to hit an uphill putt in a saddle green.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2005, 11:41:35 AM »
AHA!

So there are quite a few long carries involved at TR?

Well those are HUGE in course rating.  Make those over 175 but less than 225 and they absolutely murder the bogey while not effecting the scratch much at all.  There's your high slope and low course rating right there.

Over 225 though and the effect is gone - they murder scratch also.  Still not as much as bogey, but enough to make CR high enough to offset the difference.

TH


A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2005, 12:46:50 PM »
Honestly, I don't know that I agree that there are lots of long, forced carries at TR.  What there ARE, and this is consistently true at Strantz courses, is a lot of shots that LOOK like long, forced carries, but pretty quickly open up into very forgiving fairways.  I do think, though, that some of these shots, beginning with #1 eliminate wormburners and other terrible shots to a greater extent than would be true at, for instance, a Ross course like Midpines or Southern Pines.

Does visual intimidation factor into slope at all?  
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2005, 12:52:03 PM »
Blind shots do factor into the course rating process.

"Visual intimidation" would not per se, although there is a "psychological" criterion that does count - that adds difficulty when several of the other criteria are all present on the same hole.  Maybe this happens at TR, hard to say without seeing it.   :)

In any case re forced carries, it doesn't matter much how wide the target is - if a carry OVER something bad is involved, it effects the bogey a lot.  And far more than the scratch.

Which of course makes sense - the bogey hits WAY more of the wormburners, tops, skulls, etc. that would result in lost balls or otherwise dropped shots...

TH
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 12:52:16 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Brent Hutto

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2005, 12:54:18 PM »
Huck,

I don't have my yardage book here at work with me but a lot of the carries look worse than they are. And keep in mind on some (but not all) of them, the "penalty" is that you land on a firm sand waste area which is "through the green" and where by local rule you may lift the ball, smooth your lie then place the ball.

So from some particular tee on some particular hole you may be looking at 185 yards to the fairway but the tee is elevated so it plays more like 170-175. And if you half-top it and only carry the ball 140 yards it will roll out to 160-something then you fluff the ball up and whack it with a rescue club or lofted fairway wood. So many of the "forced carries" are not at all like, for instance, the "forced carry" to the sixteenth green at our favorite NorCal course. The eighteenth at the Road is one of the exceptions and in fact it is one of the tee shots on which one should base his choice of tees.

Mr. Crockett,

I'm not quite ready to stipulate that a course with low CR and high slope is a bad thing architecture-wise. To some extent that attitude reifies the intended workings of the course rating system far beyond what the system can consistently provide. For another, there's room for all kinds of courses and I think Tobacco Road is somewhat sui generis in its relationship to "easy", "hard", "scratch", "bogey" and so forth.

BTW, that's probably why you like it so much and definitely why I appreciate it. This is not a course that strives for its own combination of standard pieces-parts that you've seen elsewhere. It's a work of art and as such to a certain extent stands apart from the usual GCA conventional wisdom.

There are probably a lot of courses in the world that enforce the Dirty Harry maxim of "a man's gotta know his limitations" but most of them are so penal you just have to constantly steer the ball away from trouble and the only way to make a good score on a hole is with perfectly-executed shots. The charm of the Road is that I was able to pick and choose my spots to "know my limitations" while on other shots going ahead and challenging a diagonal carry or trying to shape my right-to-left shot perfectly to fit an opening. Given the way I was hitting the ball last week, that's amazing (although I must admit racking up a couple ESC 8's on the back nine by biting off more than I could chew).

In addition to its other good qualities, Tobacco Road shares with the Ocean Course at Kiawah the characteristic that I can move up to tees that are about 6,000 yards and still face my own version of the same challenge on all the shots that are faced by longer hitters playing the course back 500, 600 or more yards. Based on other courses I've seen, that seems surprisingly difficult to do. On many courses, moving up a couple sets of tees means giving up on seeing the same course that the guys who drive it 250 yards can experience.

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2005, 01:03:53 PM »
Brent:

Great stuff.  I just ought to clarify one thing:  when course rating is done, it's done by the real rules of golf.  So in the TR case, we can't allow for that type of fluffing and placing in waste bunkers.  That's not an allowable local rule.  So I'm guessing it got rated as extreme rough, meaning you have an OK chance to find the ball, not a very good chance to have a decent play.  And carries over extreme rough hurt the bogey big time and the scratch not much at all.

But this might go a long way to explain why a course with such high slope seems to be accepted and loved by more bogey golfers - because they're allowed to cheat!

As for the rest, my principle is a general one.  That is, in general, the best courses would have high course rating and low slope, and not vice versa.  That just makes logical sense I think:  the scratch can handle the challenge and ought to be challenged; the bogey ought to have a chance at some success and not get brutally punished.  That makes for the most fun for all.

But this does NOT mean that courses that go the opposite way can't be wonderful in their own way, as I have every reason to believe TR is.

I just have to believe that at courses with low CR, high slope, you're battling against the prevailing likes of golfers... most will have a hard time getting over there pre-determined wants for a course... you just have to hope you get a lot of George Pazins to play it to make it more popular.

TH
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 01:07:10 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Brent Hutto

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2005, 01:08:34 PM »
I think I only remembered that local rule about three out of eight times I was in a bunker. It goes against years of habit. Funny thing, when I remembered to smooth the sand and place the ball I hit good shots and made par or bogey. When I forgot and played it as it lies I did neither. Heck, just being able to take a couple practice swings and ground your club (like at the Ocean Course and True Blue) is a huge benefit for a poorish bunker player like myself.

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2005, 01:16:54 PM »
Brent - taking practice swings and grounding club in a waste area is fine and dandy.  The rules, and thus the course rating system, allow for such just fine.  So assuming they correctly define a bunker v. waste area, all is still well...  but you're not telling me EVERY instance of sand has this local rule, are you?

Oh man if that's the case the ratings at TR are wildly out of touch with how people play it.

And of course, in any case it's the lifting and placing that's the real problem.  Nowhere are the rules going to allow for that.  So if people do so, they are scoring better than the rating allows for... thus the good feelings.






Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2005, 01:25:08 PM »
Quote
So in the TR case, we can't allow for that type of fluffing and placing in waste bunkers.  That's not an allowable local rule.  So I'm guessing it got rated as extreme rough, meaning you have an OK chance to find the ball, not a very good chance to have a decent play.  And carries over extreme rough hurt the bogey big time and the scratch not much at all.
I think Brent implied this, but it should be said that many of the waste areas play fairly easy.  The ground is compact and the ball sits up fine at times. In fact, in one round I intentionally hit it as far right in to the waste area on #11 as I could with a left-to-right wind, and ended up with a 9 iron from a nice lie for my second shot.
Also, I do not agree that there is much in the long, forced carry department. 18 has been mentioned. 2 has a bit. And really, I can't think of much else.
I do agree TR is exponentially more difficult for a 90 shooter than a 76.  There just seem to be issues for the poorer player that are just interesting curiosities for the better player.
In partial answer to Pete's question, I believe green firmness and especially pin placements have a huge impact on how the course plays.
PS Did anyone last weekend hit 13 in 2?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2005, 01:35:26 PM »
Andy:

Gotcha.  I'd have to see them to have a real sense of how they'd go for course rating.  If it is sandy scrub with intermittent little patches of weird grass/little bushes, then it wouldn't be extreme rough, and then the carry issue wouldn't exist.  It's a very tough call without seeing it, and even seeing it still would require some judgment and debate I'm sure.

I'm just guessing at probable causes for the high slope.  One easy answer is forced carries over something bad.  If this isn't the case at TR, then we look elsewhere.

And this is a fun exercise, for me anyway.   ;D

So to that end, can you expand on this:

TR is exponentially more difficult for a 90 shooter than a 76.  There just seem to be issues for the poorer player that are just interesting curiosities for the better player.

Why?  Because you just described the very essence of high slope, low CR.  I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly what features cause this to be so.

TH




Mike Benham

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Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2005, 01:43:23 PM »
I think Brent implied this, but it should be said that many of the waste areas play fairly easy.  The ground is compact and the ball sits up fine at times. In fact, in one round I intentionally hit it as far right in to the waste area on #11 as I could with a left-to-right wind, and ended up with a 9 iron from a nice lie for my second shot.

Fairly easy but still better to be in the fairway ... the good player is not going to have a problem out of the waste areas but the average 15-20 handicapper will.  In many of the fairway waste areas, all the par-5s, #5, #18, there is considerable elavation to get back to the fairway or green.  Again, not difficult for the good golfer but a huge challenge for the mid-handicapper.  And just because, the good golfer can extricate themselves from the fairway waste area, it doesn't mean that the results of the shot are as good as it would be from the fairway.

PS Did anyone last weekend hit 13 in 2?

Not that I am aware of but from the Disc markers, we were hitting fairway woods off the tee.  I tried to hit driver over the trees, hit it well but the ball was not found.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Brent Hutto

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2005, 01:49:46 PM »
Again, not difficult for the good golfer but a huge challenge for the mid-handicapper.  And just because, the good golfer can extricate themselves from the fairway waste area, it doesn't mean that the results of the shot are as good as it would be from the fairway.

I agree that a golfer like me is pretty much screwed if the shot required from the waste area is up and over a ridge like on the eighteenth. If I hadn't made the carry on that tee shot I might as well reload, no different than lost ball. But most of the other sandy areas had alternatives.

For the good golfer, it's a half-shot kind of hazard. As Mike says, no problem to advance it but only rarely will you be as well off as having hit the fairway. As I said to Craig Disher some time on the back nine Sunday, diagonal carries over half-shot hazards are an excellent way to lay out a golf course. Those waste areas are enormously preferable to high rough.

The second hole was one tee shot where even from the "Plow" tees that I was playing (about 5,900 yards total) the carry to the fairway was insurmountable. I chose to lay up to the little strip of fairway running along the right side of the waste area. Playing it that way is slightly reminiscent of the tee shot on the second hole at CPC. I made it on the line I chose with about a half-yard to spare.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 01:53:51 PM by Brent Hutto »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2005, 01:55:55 PM »
Quote
TR is exponentially more difficult for a 90 shooter than a 76.  There just seem to be issues for the poorer player that are just interesting curiosities for the better player.

Why?  Because you just described the very essence of high slope, low CR.  I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly what features cause this to be so.
Well, part of the problem is those sandy areas whose difficulty I just got done minimizing!  Some of the area generally is fine and easily playable, other parts are pretty gnarly. It's hit or miss.  
Also, and this is just from what I witnessed from playing there with a 90 shooter, where I may not have had much problem playing from the cleaner areas, my 90 friend was far more intimidated just because he was "in the sand". The fact that it was hard-packed and a clean lie did not seem to help him much.

Second issue for the 90 guy--the large, pronounced slopes in the greens.  For a decent player with a wedge or 8 iron in hand, it is often difficult to help but hit it within 30 feet or less because of the backstops/collecting slopes. But for my friend, hitting more club (he is shorter off tee AND with his irons), he is hitting a 5 iron perhaps and he will be on the wrong side of those same slopes.  He then will have a very dicey putt, difficulty judging speed and line being made much tougher having to traverse the big slopes.
An example (which I know won't mean much to you). #7, with the pin front left.  If I have hit the huge fairway, I will have a wedge to a pin backed up by a giant hill. Really, even if I hit a wedge 10 yards too long, I will still spin back and at worst have 30 feet. My friend with his 6 iron may easily end up either too far right or long and have a very hard 2 putt.
Second example, the next hole, a par 3 around 175. The green is segmented into three distinct mini-greens. I have a decent chance of hitting my 6 iron to the correct area and then having a flattish putt. My friend, hitting a 5 wood or whatnot does not, and if he hits the green will have serious swale-idge to deal with. And if he misses the green (not unlikely with a 5 wood), he will have a tough up and down.

Another issue is intimidation.  The very first tee shot can be very hard or very easy. For my friend, he knows he needs to hit his best to get past the two mountains. I know can hit it just ok and be out there in the wide fairway past the trouble. So he presses a little and, well, you know the result of that.
 
Fourth issue is the ability to hit the ball on the high side.  There are many places where it is far easier to get where you want to be by hitting a high soft shot.  My 90 friend, who hits it lower, has a much tougher time accessing certains areas of greens, and a lower shot may find the green but then have to deal with those big slopes, or worse, find some of the gnarliness off the green.  (But, it should be said, there is almost always a way to get from here to there without traversing the ugliness, at the cost of a stroke)

Fifth, the ability to play from greenside bunkers. Many of these will be found by the 90 man, and though they do not play as hard as they sometimes appear, the reality is our 90 guy will miss some of these, sometimes several times on the same hole, and some of these bunker shots, truth be told, are not convential or something he has seen before.
Sixth, and this may be a stretch--I wonder if the 90 guy generally has the mental strength to 'carry on' when he hits it in one of the weird places, as it may be easier for him to be overwhelmed? As opposed to the better player who may look at it as an opportunity, or at least may think it is a rarity.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

THuckaby2

Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2005, 02:00:11 PM »
Andy:

Many thanks, I really appreciate that.  I am getting a handle on this and I truly believe that my intial guesses (see replies 27, 29 and 33) are on the mark.  Everything you describe is accounted for by the course rating process, and would give a course with a relatively low course rating and relatively high slope.  Great stuff.

TH
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 02:01:40 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tobacco Road too easy for the good player?
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2005, 02:02:40 PM »
Quote
Fairly easy but still better to be in the fairway ... the good player is not going to have a problem out of the waste areas but the average 15-20 handicapper will.
Mike, I think that is exactly right.

Quote
Not that I am aware of but from the Disc markers, we were hitting fairway woods off the tee.  I tried to hit driver over the trees, hit it well but the ball was not found.
Yeah, it can be done, but the drive better be fairly long and stay in the air a while.
One of my playing partners drove it into the neck of the fairway (he was not aiming that far right!), and had 225 left. He hit the green from there, which really shocked me. I would not have thought a shot from that far back could hit the green and actually stay there.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

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