[Bill Shotzbarger]

As a caddie I'd like to say thanks to everyone on here who uses and supports the use of caddies. I hope to receive a J Wood Platt scholarship this spring after I've finished all of my college applications.

When you use a cart (with no forecaddie) not only are you tearing up the course but you're also taking away an old tradition of a game that is based on tradition.

[Zack Kelly]

Chechessee Creek is caddie only until about 2:00, then you can carry your own.  Great program caddies defintely add a little flavor to the round.

[Jonathan McCord]

Jeff,
        I worked at Spring Hill last year, in Wayzata, and it has got to have some of the most strict caddie use regulations.

         -Any round before three must take a caddie and WALK.
         -The only exception being, if the person requires a cart because of a diagonosed medical problem.

       Just to clarify how little Spring Hill uses carts, we have a fleet of 24, and every morning we pull up just 4 carts.

[Andy Doyle]

John beat me to it - East Lake is caddy only.

This requirement has been somewhat of a problem for some of the "individual" members.  Since Tom Cousins has purchased and renovated East Lake, it has largely become a corporate membership.  There are a number of individuals who were members when he bought the club that retained membership.  I know a couple of these guys, and while they are enormously appreciative of what Tom Cousins has brought to the course and community, it bothers them to a certain degree that they can't head out on a late afternoon with a Sunday bag and just play a few holes without springing for the caddy fee and tip.

AD

BTW - the only 2 times I have ever played golf with a caddy were at East Lake & I LOVED it.

[Jason Topp]

I personally do not like forced caddy programs.  I would have no problem having carts priced at the same level as caddies so that there would not be a financial incentive to ride rather than walk.  

To me, caddies cost way too much when compared to their value on a course with which I am already familiar.  By carrying my bag, a caddy only reduces the amount of exersize I get.  Occassionally a caddy will be helpful with a read on a putt or in finding a ball, but more often any advice he gives either confirms what I already see or just creates uncertainty.  I would rather be certain and wrong than uncertain and right.  I appreciate a caddy cleaning my clubs but I can do it myself.  

The value of a caddy to me is primarily that he or she generally provides interesting and enjoyable company.  Other than that, I view my payments to them as essentially charity, even if they are very good at their job (which many are).  If one is a career caddy rather than a kid, there is no reason for a club to artificially support him.  Either his services are sufficiently valuable to keep him busy or they are not.

I would prefer to just open up the club on Mondays to non-member area kids and have a great teaching program available.  I would love to have off-hour "memberships" at no cost or low prices for kids that demonstrate a commitment and an understanding of how to play the game. I would think such a program would be more beneficial than artificially forcing members to pay a caddy around $20 per hour to carry two bags.

[Sean_A]

Jason

I understand your point.  I am not overly keen on caddy advice.  I would rather learn from a playing partner or just hit it and find it.  I rarely take caddies.  However, if a program is in place and caddies are standing about, I think they should be used or they won't come back.  Granted, there should be times later in the afternoon when caddies are not required.  The caddies hangin about then are usually looking for a 2nd loop.   There is much to be said for a quiet two ball out for a stroll.  

What I don't like is clubs that force a cart on you if no caddy is available.  That is rubbish.  Chris is right about pull carts.  Why they are not more in use is beyond me.  Over here nearly everybody uses them or the electric jobbies.  I hate the things personally, seems like more work than carrying, but for folks that are older or with health/injury issues, these are a God send.

Ciao

Sean

[Anthony_Nysse]

I believe that Chechessee Creek Club near Hilton Head is caddy only before 2pm. Sage Valley is caddie only also.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[SL_Solow]

At our club, Briarwood CC in Deerfield, Il we have a caddy program.  Members and guests may use cart or caddy.  If there are no caddies available then the player may use an electric pull cart, a pull cart or carry.  But if there is an available caddy, the other forms of walking are prohibited.  This practice protects the caddy program which we deem quite valuable.  In the 60's and 70's my Dad's club required those taking carts to bring at least 1 caddy per group if caddies were available.  Not only did this protect the program, it aided speed of play (fewer lost balls etc) and course maintenance (trap raking, ball mark repair etc).  No chance to institute that program today.

[Jason Mandel]

Shel,

We have the same policy at White Manor.  Carts or Caddies are available.  If there are no caddies available you may carry your own.

This defintily keeps the program going and helps the caddies get out.

Jason

[A_Clay_Man]

Shiv,
Your friend, the lurker could cite the new Forest course going in at Pebble beach.

Just, The benefit of not having a cart path, is enough of a justification, to drastically minimize cart use. Either that perhaps some of our other esteemed lurkers could  apply pressures, to drastically limit the weight of future cart models.

[Paul Carey]

Old Memorial in Tampa is caddies only with exceptions for medical needs.  Also it is all singles.  It is a great caddie program and I have never had anything but a top flight caddie.  Marty, the caddie master, runs a tight ship but it shows in the quality in the caddies.

[Lou_Duran]

A couple of questions which I hope that some of you will attempt to answer.

1)  In the singular, is the correct spelling caddy or caddie?  I suspect that the term has Anglican roots, or Latin quite possibly.

2)  Is it appropriate/justifiable to force those members and guests to buy something that they may not want on the basis of a large group or even majority thinking it is beneficial for them (to have a thriving caddie program)?  How is this any different than mandatory riding?

My objections to taking a caddie have to do with expense, value, the servant/master relationship which I am not comfortable with (being referred to as "boss", "master", "sir" by an old black caddie is not all that unusual in the south), the introduction of another variable into the game, and the lack of intimacy (I much prefer a threesome than a foursome).

As a guest to courses which require caddies or carts, I nearly always take a caddie and make the best of it.  However, if I was considering a course to join, except for CPC, Shinny, and a handful of others, a required caddie policy would be a deal killer.

This does not mean that I wouldn't take a high school caddie on occasion when the mood hit me.  Like most other things, I think it should be a matter of choice.

If it is in the best interest of the club to have a thriving caddie program, it would be less objectionable to me to have it funded more broadly within the dues structure, and let the users tip on a scale that awards and retains the best caddies.  The caddie master would be responsible for the schedule, and all caddies "punched in" would be paid a minimum amount whether or not they actually got a loop.

Any thoughts?

[Jason Topp]

Lou - I like your ideas.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Shiv,
Your friend, the lurker could cite the new Forest course going in at Pebble beach.

Adam,

You keep quoting the new course going in at Pebble Beach. I am not sure from where you are getting your information, but from what I hear, there is a Loonnngggg way to go before that gets permitting permission for it to be built.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Lou

Its from "cadet."  Now don't say that the French haven't contributed to the game of golf, or I'll choke on my Freedom Fries!

Shivas

Tell your pal that every golf club in the UK and Ireland allows pull carts.  Added to the Aussie ones, that's at least 1/2 of the "top" 20-30 courses in the world.

[SL_Solow]

Lou, I respect your right to refuse to join a club which requires caddy usage under certain circumstances.  Similarly, you should respect the right of the membership to create a policy which the majority (or super majority) deems necessary or appropriate to foster a caddy program.  If the cost of such a program is built into the dues, in essence you cause the less frequent user to subsidize the more frequent player and I know you abhor subsidies.  Let the culture of the club as determined by the members or owner make the rules.

[T_MacWood]

I don't like the idea of making caddies (or carts) mandatory at all times.

 I'd like to see more inexpensive caddies. If the old vet is a grade A, higher priced caddy, I'd like to see more Grade C or Grade D caddies. A not so good, cheap caddy...like what I was when I was kid. A little kid (boy or girl) unpolished, and just getting into the game.

[JESII]

Shivas,

Many good points, but my question is who is going to help the new caddies through those three or four rounds to get up to passable ability?

The current top caddy views them as competition and few players actually want to train a kid how to caddy. I see some real merit to the "next generation" vacancy you bring up.

[JESII]

If cart prices were more in line with caddy prices would caddy programs have a better chance of survival?

How would that revenue adjustment affect the club's financials? Positively or negatively? Just looking for a general answer, not specific numbers.

[Chris Moore]

I think the Honors Course requires caddies.  Could be wrong.

My club (New Orleans Country Club) has caddies, but there is no caddie program.  The caddies are little more than bag carriers.  

Reminds me of a funny story that happened while playing Western Gailes.  Player 1, who had a trolley but no caddie, asked Player 2, who had a caddie, for a yardage.  Player 2 deadpans, "Why don't you ask your trolley?"

[mike_malone]

 Are caddies less useful to members playing with their buddies? Aren't they best for guests playing an occasional round?

[JESII]

Totally agree about your supply / demand comments. The problem with a free open market is the motivations of the club to push carts as opposed to caddies. This creates an "artificial force" in the market that before long will exterminate any caddy program.

Some "forced caddy" caddy programs do not measure up and that needs to be fixed, but before long you and I will be forced onto a cart because there won't be anyone to caddy for us. That's the worst case scenario if you ask me.

[JESII]

Are caddies less useful to members playing with their buddies? Aren't they best for guests playing an occasional round?

How about if they've caddied for you 100 times and knows your game as well as you do, would you think that helpful?

[Lou_Duran]

SL,

I respect the right of the majority to make rules subject to due consideration of the minority.  In the case of a club with an existing mandatory caddie or riding policy, if I joined, I should be expected to abide by it.  However, this does not mean that I shouldn't be able to act within the political process to change it.

The situation might be a bit different when the policies of the clubs are changed after becoming a member, and no grandfathering or accomodation is made.  That something so important to me as the way I play golf can be dictated by a strong personality arising to club president or competition chair is just not right, no matter that if it is done by the letter of the club's by-laws.

Options on the course seem to be important to our group.  Why would we pass on policies which limit choices in something so important?  This is not a matter of whether the club purchases its snacks from Frito-Lay or Utz.  It is a mandate that requires I eat one as opposed to the other if I am going to eat at all.

As to including some of the cost of the caddie program in the dues structure, you are right, I abhor subsidies.  By its very nature, joining a club involves the aggregation of costs and allocating them not on usage but on the membership type.   The single 50 year-old guy shouldn't bitch about the Mormon member who has eight kids and wife fully utilizing the club.  It is all part of the deal.

The cost of F & B is often not covered by the menu prices.  This important aspect of club life is subsidized by the membership, with the average member probably breaking even.

All I am suggesting is that if a caddie program is that important to a club, a prefered method to fund it might be to broaden the dues structure to provide a core program and have the voluntary users of the program tip an amount which promotes its viability.

BTW, I know of a certain world-class club where some members wait until the caddies are already out or have gone home.  It is not necessarily a financial consideration- but doesn't it seem preferable to allow other members to do their thing so long as it is not greatly affecting mine?  Or do some members insist on obtaining a subsidy for their choices and lifestyles?

   

[mike_malone]

Certainly, Jim, but that is a rare breed.

    I would think that Pine Valley or Merion would have a different type of caddie than Rolling Green or Huntingdon Valley. There is a higher guest/ member play ratio at those clubs, I presume. So, the reading of greens , in particular, is valuable or giving the "real" yardage.
    Honestly, I have played in our caddie day a few years. I read my own putts on my course.

  I wish we had a "bagcarrier" level. I love to walk my home course, but don't use much advice.

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