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Matt_Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2005, 02:14:16 PM »
Mike:

I have not played Trump's new palace yet -- but will later this summer.

You mentioned the course belongs in the top five in the Garden State -- high praise indeed and clearly you have credibility from my perspective.

Just for the purposes of information -- what are the other four (4) courses in the state that you would have along with Trump National.

Given that Trump is one of the five -- which course previously in your top five was bumped off?

Thanks ...

P.S. How much better is Trump National versus Galloway National ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2005, 05:23:59 PM »
Matt,

Thanks for the kind words.  I think you'll enjoy it.

However, as far as listing my Top 5, Steve tried to get me to do the same thing and I'm not going to go there.   I'd rather this thread be about the positives aspects of TN than about which course it displaced.  I'm sure you can guess some of the other usual suspects and you already know that I believe Plainfield is the second best course in the state that I've played.  ;)

I can also tell you that I've left room for Somerset Hills because from everything I've heard, it has considerable merit and uniqueness that draw it close to the top.  I hope to see for myself someday.

As far as comparison to Galloway National, Trump is better on two clear counts;

1) It's a far better routing, having walked both.
2) It's benefits that it's on far more interesting land that is one of the better inland sites in terms of variety and playability tht I've seen in the mid-Atlantic.

To me, it's a Doak Scale 8.  There aren't too many of those in NJ, despite the overall high quality and considerable quantity.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 05:34:35 PM by Mike Cirba »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2005, 10:54:38 PM »
Mike,

   You are clearly suffering from a malware virus that has struck your cerebellum!!

    How could a course with over 5 man made ponds (not one of them EVER existed before...and this ain't no Las Vegas Desert) and over 3 "chute-cut" carries, along with massive bunkers ever be called "sedate. low-keyed, understated and restrained," and rank in NJ's top 5????? ::) ::)

  We agree its a good or very good Faz, but please tell me how it lays out any better that the Ridge at Back Brook or a
Baltusrol Upper?

  You only played it once...try playing it multiple times before you can see all the facets and the flaws.

   You still haven't explained your PD reference?? I know that course fairly well and TN has absolutely NOTHING in common with a course carved out of some pre-exisitng dunes/links-like land.

    Gina or Cooper seduced you my friend  ;)and the little woman at home has been keeping you too locked up :o....get out and see the world...TN ain't no Doak 8 and I would bet a signifcant pile of dough it wouldn't see itself north of a 6 (and thats generous) by the big man himself. I'll even make the bet a charity wager if need be...but it's a lay-up!! :)

S

PS...Once the good blue-blooded folks up at Somerset Hills get wind of your praise for the PT Barnum of our times, you may well never see that gloriously sporty track that REALLY follows the natural landforms (without 5 ponds/3 pushed up greens/Staten Island bunkers/ and crazy artificial chutes).. ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 10:56:28 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2005, 12:17:36 AM »
Steve,

Gina or Cooper seduced me?  What exactly are you implying??  ;)  

I have to admit that your reply is very funny and pointed.  I'm enjoying this and hope that you are, as well. ;D

Once we get past the fact that you obviously don't like Donald Trump or his organization very much (not that there's anything wrong or unique about that!), you do ask some very good questions, and questions I've wondered about as well.

It's not everyday, for instance, that a course with that number of water hazards appeals to me.  And in thinking about it, I find myself feeling that it's probably the same reason that ANGC appeals to me, even if the "man made ponds" are simply the result of damming Rae's Creek.  

Also, most of the water hazards in play are used in superbly creative, and diagonal ways.  I'm not really keen on the pond on 4, although that one doesn't require much of a carry and the green is superb, and the one on 10 is similar to a degree to 16 at ANGC, except in reverse....the water doesn't really come into play to a back left pin, but does to a front pin...perhaps more like Baltusrol Lower #4.  

The use of the water hazard on 6 & 7 is pretty masterful and on 11 & 12 it's generally pretty good if nothing particularly unique or special.  

Still, none of those situations really detract from the fact that they are sound golf holes with some really fabulous greens, and in a few cases, the water hazards really enhance the intensity of the approach shot.  Beyond that, the water hazards don't "look" manufactured.  THere are no waterfalls, no bubbling fountains, no stone walls or boulders, just some lower lying areas with ponds that are very placid and natural looking.

You also mentioned a few drives requiring "chute cut" carries.  Perhaps it was the different tees we played, but I really didn't see anything too daunting that made me feel impinged.  

For instance, I thought the best damn hole on the course was # 14, which requires a drive that needs some threading, but the fairway in that area is probably 40-50 yards wide.  #2 is probably the biggest offender of what you speak of, and I'd take down a few more of the big trees down there, but even from the gold tees you played, it only takes a 215 yard shot to reach the fairway downhill and probably not a hole to pull driver unless you go for the big tee ball up the left to leave the best angle into the long, angled green.  The hole is 410 from the gold tees, and only 355 from where we played at the blues, so it's not like there aren't options, particularly a safe one by clubbing down.

Given that many hole offer plenty of width and spaciousness, I didn't feel unfairly impinged by a few of the shorter holes requiring more of a demand for specific accuracy, particularly if one was inclined to play a gambling shot hoping for birdie.  

The only other hole I would call "tight" was probably 8, but that's a reachable par five, where a drive trying to carry the bunkers on the left gets a turbo boost downhill benefit.  In fact, it only requires a 253 yard carry from the gold tees to be setup in an ideal position to try for the boomerang shaped green in two.  From the blue tees, two of the players in our group had a run at it.  

I did think of one other question today while mowing the lawn.

You called the 16th hole "forced on the land".  Could you tell me more of what you mean by that?  From my perspective, the hole starts at the top of a natural climb that took you to the hilltop 15th green, requires a drive down about 70 feet to a "cape" type fairway where you can bite off as much as you will.  Granted, some of the trees and gunk on the left don't help, but the hole still only plays 438 from the golds and that ain't too bad considering the downhill drive.  I played it at 405.  Similar to 5 at Mid Ocean, the hole turns left once you reach the bottom, to a difficult to hit and hold green that is almost an L-shape turned in reverse, with a single bunker guarding the right side.  

Could you tell me what you feel is "forced"?  I played with others who are not big fans of artifice, yet to a man seemed to think the hole was one of the best ones on the course.

As far as Somerset, aren't there a number of water hazards over there, particularly on the par threes?  Tillie certainly wasn't one averse to damming a creek to create ponds and he just wanted everything to look natural, even if it wasn't.  

Thanks for your thoughts.  I certainly enjoy discussing the details with you and even if my cerebellum has been affected adversely, I'm glad you still think I'm worth saving!  ;D    

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2005, 12:32:13 AM »
Steve,

One other thing occurred to me in thinking about your comment on the blue bloods at Somerset is the distinct feeling that I think we all need to get past our own personal feelings about "The Donald" in evaluating this course.

It's obvious from your posts that you don't like him and his organization and that's fine and understandable and I'm sure you're not the only one.  I mentioned in my initial post on this thread that I certainly came into this with a lot of reservations and negative expectations.  Given his public persona, one would have to live in a vacuum not to have some sort of reaction to the guy.

Still, what occurred to me is that much of the history of golf courses is filled with some pretty weird rich guys building courses for themselves and their friends.  I mean, I can't imagine that Clarence Geist or Clifford Roberts were the sort of fellows we'd be looking to strike up a friendly game with, much less a long-term friendship.  I could probably come up with about 50 more examples of men who combined financial success with arrogance and odd personalities and who also had an interest in building golf courses.  Even George Crump for how much he was loved and admired had to be sort of a obsessive/compulsive type at the very least to make himself a bit of a hermit in the woods of south Jersey building Pine Valley.  

This is in no way a defense of Trump personally, but simply asking to keep some perspective in this discussion, and ultimately, a sense I have that many people will not have an open mind about the course at Trump National simply because they can't get past their own feelings about Trump the man.  

Your own comments run the gamut from telling me I've lost my mind (which isn't particularly unbelievable!) ;D to saying that Fazio built a very fine course on very good land and personally rating it rather high in a great golf state.  I would still be willing to bet that we would agree much more than disagree, and whatever you feel might be overhyped hyperbole on my part is probably matched by some part of personality founded skepticism on yours.  

I'm hoping that others who've played it will weigh in, as well, and we'll likely find that many parts of both of our own assessments are confirmed by others.  
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 12:34:29 AM by Mike Cirba »

Nathan Cashwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2005, 09:41:52 AM »
So, who actually is responsible for the design of Trump National?  I've heard it was a Jim Fazio (Tom's bro), as well as, Tommy Fazio (Tom's nephew, Jim's son), but I never heard Big Faz (Tom) had anything to do with it.  However, it would not surprise me.  So who is the actual architect?

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2005, 09:44:00 AM »
I think we all need to get past our own personal feelings about "The Donald" in evaluating this course.

Mike,

I am playing TN on Saturday and will post my thoughts early next week.

In addition, I couldn't agree more that we need to push our personal thoughts aside when we evaluate the merits of this golf course.  I wish I could find the thread, but I was unsuccessfully fighting this battle a year or two ago on GCA when his plans for Bedminster were announced.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2005, 09:45:17 AM »
Tom Fazio is officially given credit for the design.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2005, 10:13:21 AM »
I think we all need to get past our own personal feelings about "The Donald" in evaluating this course.

Mike,

I am playing TN on Saturday and will post my thoughts early next week.

In addition, I couldn't agree more that we need to push our personal thoughts aside when we evaluate the merits of this golf course.  I wish I could find the thread, but I was unsuccessfully fighting this battle a year or two ago on GCA when his plans for Bedminster were announced.

Mike et.al,

   I am rushing around today and can only be brief, but while I do not care for the Donald and his hype (obvious and true)...I have commented directly on the course....it is good, but nowhere near great. All that fake water and false chutes makes me cringe when thinking of ascribing it the status you give it.

   It's not at all a bad track and as I've said before, a very good Faz....it just doesn't cut it when measured against so many other very strong designs and executions. For example, I think its no better than Ballyowen or a Hudson National.

   You like it alot and I don't...the only substantial difference is that most all of you out there on GCA have only played it once and many of you have been there as a rater....both situations that IMHO taint your ability to accurately review all the facets of the course....has anyone played it in adverse conditions? On days when the course is windy, or wet. I have and for example, those chutes that you so handily dismiss as not being oppressive come much more into play and are revealed as false features that impede the lines of play. That doesn't happen at Somerset Hills or a Hollywood or a Mtn. Ridge.

   Also, I'd still like to see how the hell you used Prairie Dunes as a reference? There is no real terrain or strategy basis for your reference.

     Somerset has several little ponds that come into play, but they come from existing creeks and age-old dams...not artificially like TN's. Only on 12 and 16 do they really feel like they influence the line of play (though the creek does wonerfully so on 15). In general, putting ponds in like #4, #10/11/12 and #16 are just means of covering up for a lack of imagination (I do agree with you about the high-quality of water on #6/7) by the architect. That is my general gripe...the lack of real imagination and reliance on formulaic approach that is common place for a Faz design. At TN it works better than most other places, but not well enough to displace so many better designs in NJ...including his own Ridge at Back Brook.

PS.....Maybe I don't like the Donald and it does influence me, but when he and his minions lie & boast the way they do, it can't help but leave a sour taste in ones mouth.

Geist, Crump, Roberts,  Bakst and Youngblood were, and are, not known as liars and false-braggerts...something Trump can't avoid, thus your analogy is seriously faulty.....The game is still about honor and that line is well defined when it comes to lying and cheating!!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2005, 05:28:04 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2005, 10:33:55 AM »
Pat - There is a big difference between iniheriting a routing from a different architect. I'm not sure the owner makes that big of a difference if the architect remains the same. Especially where, as here, the routing remained the largely the same.

The course was a lot more interesting before Trump started insisting on more water features. But then again I might be biased as I know the guy responsible for the original design (prior to Trump).

Matt_Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2005, 10:48:07 AM »
Mike:

I can't let you slide partner -- you are the guy who said the new Trump is among the five best in NJ. Given you opened the can of ratings worms -- what are the top five according to Mike "Yoda" Cirba ? ;D

I also see Somerset Hills as being vastly overrated -- a borderline top 15 in my book in the Garden State.

One other thing -- keep this in mind -- if Galloway is already a top 100 modern by GolfWeek you then must believe that Trump's new place is higher than where Galloway National is now (top 60 if memory serves).

Look forward to your direct response -- please feel free to leave the tap dance shoes off. ;D

Mat Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2005, 03:30:21 PM »
I'm confused on several things:

1) Mr. Lapper, if you hate Trump, the GM and are sanguine the course, why have you played there half a dozen times partner..? My mea culpa but sounds like sour grapes..  Can you comment why you've been there so many times?


2) Mike Cirba-- Mr. Flip Flop.. Pullllleeeeeeeeeehhhhhzzzz!!!!!!!
What has happened to you.. You arguments have more holes than Japanese Rice paper..  Get yourself to a hypnotherapist and learn what slope and course rating can do for you..

My mea culpa if you are offended.. Soon, you'll come around and realize my amigo Jim Engh is God..

« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 03:31:08 PM by Mat Ward »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2005, 03:38:53 PM »
I'm confused on several things:

1) Mr. Lapper, if you hate Trump, the GM and are sanguine the course, why have you played there half a dozen times partner..? My mea culpa but sounds like sour grapes..  Can you comment why you've been there so many times?


2) Mike Cirba-- Mr. Flip Flop.. Pullllleeeeeeeeeehhhhhzzzz!!!!!!!
What has happened to you.. You arguments have more holes than Japanese Rice paper..  Get yourself to a hypnotherapist and learn what slope and course rating can do for you..

My mea culpa if you are offended.. Soon, you'll come around and realize my amigo Jim Engh is God..




Matt,

    I don't care for Trump & his GM (I never used the word "hate"...way too severe a word for a dislike)

    I happen to have played there quite a bit due to business and social relations and contacts. In fact, that seems to be why most of my recent golf has been played period!

    As I mentioned in the earlier posts, I do have some otherwise intelligent friends who happen to have joined there a long while back (2000) (when it was a National Fairways project).....is that okay by you, your grand poo-bah??? ;)

   I was just using your pal's precedent and argument that one needs to have played a course several or more times to fully appreciate it!


« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 03:40:48 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2005, 04:13:57 PM »


Most of the design of the golf course was there before Trump was involved.

Like Easthampton, most of the routing was inherited as was much of the design.



SPDB

Are the above statements correct or incorrect ?

A one word answer will do.

Thanks
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 04:14:43 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2005, 05:39:38 PM »
Pat:

Independent of one another, I guess they are correct. But the comparison you draw is incorrect. TN is not like EHGC.

EHGC had the same owner - it was the architect who inherited the routing.

TN, on the other hand, kept the same architect, and it was the owner who inherited the project (including the routing, which was largely the same).

The difference, I believe, is significant.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2005, 06:01:41 PM »
Hey "Mat" Ward,

How have I flip-flopped?

I've lauded good and excellent Tom Fazio courses (i.e. World Woods Pine Barrens, Galloway) and panned others (i.e. Ridge At Back Brook) and gave middling reports on others (i.e. Emerald Dunes) here in the past.  

I've also trashed his restoration work as pure crap and bordering on vandalism.

I've done the same with Rees Jones, starting posts here on excellent courses like Olde Kinderhook and blasting others like Tattersall..

I've been one of the only people on here willing to speak up if they don't believe that the latest courses by one of our mutual heroes might be less than perfect, or at least questioned the approach.  Please see my past comments on Hidden Creek, the par threes on the original course at Stonewall, or my mixed review of French Creek.  Conversely, I've given due props to Pac Dunes, Sand Hills, and Rustic Canyon, as well as others.

Is the the Republican or Democratic party, where failure to toe the strict party line makes one suspect as as purist?

Look, if people want to hear my honest impressions of a course, regardless of architect, then I'll tell them and that's perhaps the only value I can offer to this board.  

If you can offer more criticism of my writeup than saying it has logical holes in it, please do so and I'll be happy to enter into a real dialogue with you.  

Have you played Trump National?  

I thought not.

Look...If we're just here to prop up a few guys who seem to be doing well enough on their own, then perhaps I should take a long vacation.  
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:10:57 PM by Mike Cirba »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2005, 06:22:42 PM »
Is the the Republican or Democratic party, where failure to toe the strict party line makes one suspect as as purist?

Look, if people want to hear my honest impressions of a course, regardless of architect, then I'll tell them and that's perhaps the only value I can offer to this board.  


Mike,

    Face it...you used to be a Communist  :-Xand now you are shedding your Socialist skin :-[ to become a ......Capitalist!!!! :-*

    I want all of your opinions....honest, dishonest, discombobulated, distraught, real, unreal, etc....bring em on!!!

   I may differ with you and chide (all in gest ;D) you for moving over to the "dark" side, but I will defend your every last 'write' to do so...keep the faith and don't let the roman statues stymie your point of view (sic).

Your Ardent Defender!!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2005, 06:23:10 PM »
Mike:

I can't let you slide partner -- you are the guy who said the new Trump is among the five best in NJ. Given you opened the can of ratings worms -- what are the top five according to Mike "Yoda" Cirba ? ;D

One other thing -- keep this in mind -- if Galloway is already a top 100 modern by GolfWeek you then must believe that Trump's new place is higher than where Galloway National is now (top 60 if memory serves).


Matt (the real one),

Galloway National, a course I believe is excellent, is presently #38 on the Golfweek Modern List.

Trump National is a better golf course.  

Steve,

I don't agree with you that Ridge at Back Brook and Ballyowen are as good as TN.  

I found most of the holes at RABB to be devoid of real strategy, I found the routing banal, and the property too abrupt and severe.  What's more the greens themselves have nowhere near the level of interest or challenge than do the greens at TN, nor is there more than a handful of shots I'd find myself wishing to play multiple times, despite the pretty views and the money pumped into the course's construction.

Ballyowen is a very good public venue, in my mind the 2nd best in NJ next to Twisted Dune.  However, talk about artificial ponds!  It also includes some horrible, HORRIBLE par threes that require long carries over water to shallow, unreceptive greens.  

Neither course is within a point of TN on any rating scale I can think of.

As far as Prairie Dunes, the comparision was a stretch, but when we reached the open, rolling, undulating fairway on #3, and were approaching the perched up green with deep bunkers to each side, I was reminded of the demands of #5 at PD, which also offers unlevel lies and a challenging greensite to attack.  The fact that the wind was quartering into us pretty good at that point from the right added to the feel.  I didn't say it was some type of replica, but I can't help if a hole reminds me of something I'd played before.

 

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2005, 06:29:30 PM »
Steve,

I prefer pinko, or Marxist.  ;)

Hey, if the Chinese can shed their collectivist skins, then who says I can't.  ;D

I know that you and I can debate in jest, reasonable intelligence, and spirited good humor when we disagree.   I just didn't appreciate the visit from the Purist Police, whoeverthey might be.   ::) ;D
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:30:24 PM by Mike Cirba »

Scratch_Nathan

Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2005, 06:55:55 PM »
What a coincidence that I played TN for the first time recently and now I stumble upon this gold mine of debate/commentary over the course!  Here's some additional wood for the fire:

Solid golf course, no question.  Definitely good... but definitely not great.  And for Steve Lapper's benefit, I think Hamilton Farm is my preferred modern course in the area (especially the par-3 holes).  Only played Due Process once many years ago so I can't really figure out where that one fits in.

Mike's assesment is right on with regard to the rolling land... magnificent golf course property.  

Nice atmosphere, beautiful old trees and classic looking buildings accent the experience.  Undoubtedly the best of the three Trump golf courses I've played by far... and that goes straight to the fact that the golf course was already laid out before DT got his hands on it.

Really liked 2, 3, 5, 12, 14 and 15.  All excellent golf holes for me with nice visuals, strategy, use of natural features and interesting/challenging hazards and greens (I'm usually very critical of TFaz greens so these were a very entertaining surprise).

I would have liked holes 6 and 7 much more if they weren't back-to-back.  The similarities of the look/demands of the 2nd shot on 6 with the tee ball on 7 were a considerable drawback (very cool hump in the 6th green, though).  Then #11 shows the player the same thing all over again on the back nine!!!!  Three water-laden peninsula greens all at relatively similar angles and with relatively similar clubs... not good.

The par-3 4th, 10th (looks awfully familiar to #4 at Baltusrol Lower but not as good) and 17th were a little underwhelming considering the canvas... but they're playable and no major malpractice evident.  

#s 8 and 16 are awfully suspect golf holes IMHO.  #8 could be a good hole if there was fairway left of the huge tree in the wetlands so a player could use the fairway pad entry on the left of the green.  The way it is now, I can't even understand why the left side of the green complex even exists... the only way to get there now is by over-hooking an approach from the right by 30+ yards.  #16's issues are obvious.  Okay to ask a player to put their LONG tee shots "through the uprights" but not if the hole asks the player for a bowing hook to keep it in the short grass.

A good course on what appears to be excellent land.  Impressive but not inspiring.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2005, 10:55:28 PM »
Greg/Steve,

Thanks for weighing in.  So far I've heard nothing to dissuade my impressions, and all of you say that it's at least a very good golf course on superb property.  That should at least quell the rumors of the acid-laced Kool-aid. ;)  

As far as #8, as redanman mentions, there are plans to extend the fairway after the turn much wider to the left, and the green on the left will be extended all the way down into a true boomerang.  That should make all of the options play much more flexibly, and really make the hole shine.  

As far as 16, the part they are talking about clearing is not protected wetlands, but beyond that, where a bunch of smaller trees and overgrowth blocks views.  The intent, with the USGA's blessing and suggestion, is to clear everything but the most mature trees, which will bring the green into view from the tee.  In fact, one of the most encouraging things I heard the entire day was the fact that "the USGA doesn't like trees, and has been encouraging their removal".  

I'm beginning to think that one of the things I like about #16 is the fact that almost every great hole in the world is somewhat controversial, and makes demands of the top player that borders on unfair.

There aren't enough holes of this ilk, much less by Tom Fazio!  ;D

Mat Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2005, 08:15:51 AM »
Mike Cirba-

I think you've been out by the barn having a little too much fun in PA--most likely in Amish Country getting whipped behind the barn and sworn allegiance to the dark side..

BTW, I hope the great state of NJ annexes Pennsylvania or at least Bucks county.. Or maybe we'll send Jim Florio, out best politician and bring him out of retirement and send him over to claim it..

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2005, 08:27:45 AM »


Matt Ward

I have always been impressed with the fact that you do not have preconcieved notions on courses and actually go out and play the courses you comment on.  Please stick to architecture, that is what you are best at.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2005, 08:38:01 AM »
Oh "Mat",

Next time you come east, you have to play some really good Fazio courses like Galloway and Trump.

How good is it?  I putted from 50 yards on the 5th hole to 6 feet.  You might even want to roll around in the deep bunkers!  ;D

Look, I know a lot of his courses are all style and no substance and his restoration work is anything but.  However, he has built some excellent courses back east.  Perhaps his west coast associates are lacking?  

Hamilton,

Please not that the poster in question is not "Matt" Ward, but "Mat" Ward.  

I guess he figures he can poke two birds with one stone.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 08:40:43 AM by Mike Cirba »

Matt_Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2005, 10:35:06 AM »
redanman:

Super post -- don't want to blow up your ego partner. You are spot on regarding the "other" architects who are often dismissed or forgotten on GCA. Tom Fazio. Inc. does have some unique and exciting designs that are simply out of sight / out of mind (Glenwild in Park City, UT) leaps to memory.

The other issue you also mention is also quite true -- there are other Jersey courses that sometimes get too much of a boost (Mountain Ridge) while others like the recently restored Essex County CC get far too little attention.

Mike C:

Just being curious (sorry about that) but what would you say are the best TF courses you personally have ever played? Would Trump's new place in Jersey be at the top of the list?

I'm looking forward to playing there later this summer.

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