[Mike Nuzzo]

This is getting better by the minute.

How so?
Where is Black Mesa - -

Matt Please give Ron a call.

That makes me ill.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Tom Doak,

Your comments are spot on.  The criteria here lead to a certain type of result that is fairly unlikely to lead to the "best" courses being identified. Frankly, I am not sure what these lists have identified.  I used to believe that any course that was ever ranked by any of the magazines was probably worth seeing if one were interested in seeing quality architecture. I don't think I can make that statement any more.  

[George Pazin]

Mike -

I detect a note of sarcasm in Matt's voice.

 

[Scott_Burroughs]

Top courses on Golfweek's list not on GD's:
Friars Head (3 - too new)
Sutton Bay (13 - too new)
Kinglsey (22 - too new?)

John,

How are they too new?  GD dropped their 5-year wait at least a couple of lists ago.  Two courses on the current Top 100 list, Dallas National and Briar's Creek, both opened in 2002.  Kinloch opened in 2001.

Maybe they have reduced it to 2 years?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike N:

Black Mesa needs to be rated among the top 10-20 public courses in the USA IMHO. If Paa-Ko is there -- which I would debate it being that high -- then clearly Black Mesa belongs there.

I read Ron Whitten's comments on Black Mesa and have to wonder if the raters from Digest are simply out to lunch on that one and others -- specifically on the public side which is truly laughable in so many ways.

Huck:

The reality is that in your heart of hearts you know how sad things have become with the Digest ratings -- you were defending the inclusion of tradition when it was there -- I guess you will now defend it's no longer there. How intellectually consistent ?

Nothing like falling in line -- huh ?

[Jim Franklin]

My beloved Five Farms dropped completely off the list. OUCH.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

What a collosal, fantastic, and dare I say perfect list.

Tradition points?  Stupid concept.  I deny ever defending it.  Those words were from some other Tom Huckaby.

 

Skippy, Tom's evil twin, has been known to occasionally post on this site.  So, any inane postings can be attributed to Skippy.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Me personally?  I do value tradition and continue to think it has it's place in this.  I know I never said it was done perfectly before... but I also know I did defend against those who would dump the entire GD system because it included this.  Say what you will about GD, but they seem to constantly tweak and change things in an effort to get things right.

In my heart of hearts I continue to believe that GD does the best job of evaluating golf courses, in terms of what really matters to golfers.

But pick away...

This just is a very happy day.  A rapturous one indeed.

 

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

That Skippy is a vile guy.  

Seriously though, my feelings are what I just posted to Matt.  I was trying for some lightness before, and I appreciate you getting that.  Oh would that others could take this with a sense of humor....  

In the end, if it helps out a wonderful course like yours... or Sand Hills... then I can't be disappointed that Tradition was dropped.  Heck, in my heart of hearts I also know that it's always gonna count, one way or the other... people will just factor it in differently, perhaps subconsciously.

But man, today's rankings ain't perfect for sure... no one is ever gonna agree 100% with them, nor should they... but on the hole I can most definitely live with them.

TH

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

The Plantation Course at #74 on the public list is the biggest surprise to me.  I played it on Sunday (just before they shut the course down) and it was phenomenal - even in a driving rain and 30+ mph winds.  I have played many of the top public venues and it is right up there with the best.  Interestingly enough, I also played Mauna Kea (#32/Public) on the trip and I have The Plantation Course ranked ahead of it.

On the positive side, I was very happy to see Fishers Island move up considerably on the list.  It is right where it belongs at #16 and might creep up slowly from there if they continue to improve the conditioning.

[John Kirk]

The Kingsley Club moved from #22 to #20 in Michigan.  Doesn't look like this GCA.com favorite will ever be a top GD 100 course.

Kinloch at #33 is higher than I guessed.  I've played it a couple times, and it is an extremely well balanced, enjoyable test of golf.  Golf Digest's kind of place.

Victoria National is very highly ranked (#21).  It looks like a fine course, but I have to believe that VN ranks very high in conditioning and resistance to scoring.  Where's John Kavanaugh lately, so he can chime in?

Stanford falls off the best (30) in California list.  Sad.

The new Nicklaus course at Pronghorn starts at #4 in Oregon, ahead of both Pumpkin Ridge courses.

I just love golf course rankings.  I can't help myself.

[THuckaby2]

JMK:  that is sad re Stanford.  I was also very curious that Pasatiempo fell back quite a bit.  The CA state list is curious for sure.

Re Kingsley, man it remains hard for me to believe enough GD raters saw it.  I mean yes, the GD criteria are quite different from GW and from the criteria valued in this forum... but it's just hard to believe a course THAT revered by GW and GCA in general would get zero love from GD.  I've never been there but I trust the opinions of those who have... everyone I have ever talked to or read who has played it has absolutely loved it.  GD raters wouldn't be THAT different... hell I am one....

TH

[Jeff Goldman]

Huck,

Don't any of you guys ever get to Lawsonia?  It's only an hour from BWR.

Jeff

[Jimmy Muratt]

As mentioned, the best-in-state rankings are now posted as well.  Here is link to the rankings:

http://www.golfdigest.com/pdf/gd200505bestinstate.pdf

Note:  Friar's Head is ranked #14 in NY so I guess it did qualify for the rankings.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Top courses on Golfweek's list not on GD's:
Friars Head (3 - too new)
Sutton Bay (13 - too new)
Kinglsey (22 - too new?)

Friar's Head was ranked 14th.....in the State of New York ! I really like Atlantic GC, and have always thought it gets a bad rap here at GCA, but come-on Ron Whitten needs to do some work here. I don't know where FH should be ranked, but Atlantic can't match up to Friar's Head.

By the way, Great River #2 in Connecticut - yikes.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Who is going to start that thread...

"Atlantic is better than Friars."

 

Note:  Friar's Head is ranked #14 in NY so I guess it did qualify for the rankings.

[Pat Brockwell]

Tom, If  Golf Digest is getting it right in terms of what matters most to golfers then I guess the Oscar should go to the highest grossing film.  It looks like the big budget action film is the be-all, end-all. I just am a bit dissapointed that lush turf with no roll seems to be favored by the list and is what has come to be the standard expectation.  Ron Whitten seems to be out of synch with his raters and somebody has some splainin' to do.  I am struck by the lack of consistency in their selections and wonder where we ended up in their scoring system. Oh well, all of the other lists like Black Mesa.

[Scott_Burroughs]

It seems as if GD is still updating the online article.  The state-by-state guide has now been posted:

http://golfdigest.com/pdf/gd200505bestinstate.pdf


They still should put the lists online also in .html format, instead of only .pdf.


Some comments on the State-by-State lists:

-No Talking Stick or Apache S in AZ's top 25

-No Barona or Rustic in CA's top 30

-Yale #4 and Wintonbury Hills #10 in CT

-Trump Int'l is #2 in FL over WW(PB), TPC@Sawgrass, etc. behind Seminole

-Castle Pines is #1 in CO over Cherry Hills

-Kuki'o is #2 in HI over Mauna Kea, Kapalua, etc. (behind Prince)

-Beverly #17 in IL?  (it slipped 7 spots)  Black Sheep #24, Bob 'O #25.

-Top 3 courses in LA are a literal Who's Who (meaning I've never heard of them):  Squire Creek, Copper Mill, Gray Plantation.  English Turn and the newly restored Metairie CC are not in the Top 10.

-Beechtree #14 in MD.  If there are 13 better courses in MD....

-Kingsley Club is #20 in MI.  Indianwood (Old) #25.

-Top 2 courses in MO are CC of St. Albans(Tavern Creek) and Dalhousie over Bellerive, Old Warson, St. Louis CC....

-Top 3 courses in NH are a literal Who's Who (meaning I've never heard of them):  Baker Hill, Lake Winnipesaukee, GC of New England.

-Mike Cirba's fave anti-strategy course, The Ridge at Back Brook is #6 in NJ over Baltusrol (Upper), Ridgewood, Hidden Creek (#11), Hollywood, Hamilton Farm, etc.

-Black Mesa is #4 in NM

-Friar's Head is #14 in NY (behind Atlantic, Hudson National) and did not make Top 100

-The Club at Longview (in Weddington?) is #11 in NC.  I've lived here over 10 years, pay pretty close attention to new course openings, (and know the regular courses pretty well) and I've never heard of it.

-Pine Needles is #22 in NC.  Tobacco Road is tied at #23.

-Olde Stonewall is #10 in PA over Lancaster, Stonewall I, Philly CC, Fox Chapel, Philly Cricket, Manny's, and Applebrook (#23).

-Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach fell 12 spots in SC from #4 to #16.

-Sutton Bay is #1 in SD and did not make Top 100

-The Rawls Course is #12 in TX.  Vacquero is #16.

-Matt Ward fave Glenwild is #1 in UT.

-The Greenbrier Sporting Club (The Snead) is #2 in WV.

-Lawsonia (Links) is not in the top 10 in WI.

[THuckaby2]

Jeff:

Who knows what the deal is with Lawsonia.  Chalk this up along with Kingsley as a mystery.

Now what we really need to know is what's what re Friar's Head.  Because Jimmy's right - there it is, #14 in NY.  Talk about disagreement from GW and the prevailing wisdom here...

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Scott -

The Club at Longview is right next to my best friend's house in Charlotte. I played it in September and really liked it. I was totally shocked it did not place in the Best New this year. From my understanding it is difficult to get on, but fortunately I have a client and friend that are members.

[THuckaby2]

Tom, If  Golf Digest is getting it right in terms of what matters most to golfers then I guess the Oscar should go to the highest grossing film.  It looks like the big budget action film is the be-all, end-all. I just am a bit dissapointed that lush turf with no roll seems to be favored by the list and is what has come to be the standard expectation.  Ron Whitten seems to be out of synch with his raters and somebody has some splainin' to do.  I am struck by the lack of consistency in their selections and wonder where we ended up in their scoring system. Oh well, all of the other lists like Black Mesa.

Pat:

I am a GD panelist and rest assured I loved Black Mesa.  I gave it quite higher scores than Paa-Ko, for example.  Who knows what happened... maybe others treated it like George Pazin, a regular here, who found it to be too severe.  I don't know.  I loved the course and do find this ommission very odd.

As for generalities, it's hard to say lush conditions were favored, etc.  Maybe that's true, I don't know.  I kinda think overall most courses were assessed correctly.

In any case, I do believe GD does correctly evaluate what matters to golfers.  I don't know that this would equate to giving Oscars to highest-grossing - that's taking it too far.   But perhaps a happy medium between highest-grossing and best "art" is the proper way to do this?  Because as much as critics loved a movie like Blue Velvet, for example, everyone I know outside of film students and those kissing up to them thought it was weird and basically sucked.  So should Blue Velvet win any awards?  I can't see that being right.

Taking this to golf courses, well... it seems to me "architecture" is best assessed by those in the business... so much more goes into a courses worth than just it's "architecture"... that I think a happy medium can be found, and GD gets the closest.

But if it means Black Mesa doesn't get it's just due, well... hopefully that will sort out over time and as more Huckabys see it and fewer Pazins.

TH

[George Pazin]

Apparently them stones at Olde Stonewall sure are purty.

It's not even my favorite local daily fee - I'd take Quicksilver over it.

Re: Black Mesa -

The only negative I said is that it isn't ideal for high handicappers. Most top courses probably aren't, and I wouldn't let my own shortcomings affect a ranking, were I a rater (which I am thankfully not). I would place it well above Paa Ko, for instance.

 

[Jimmy Muratt]

It seems like two of the biggest mysteries on the list are Friar's Head #14 in NY and the Kingsley Club #20 in Michigan.  Is it just a coincidence that neither has built a formal clubhouse yet?  Could it be that many of the raters are influenced by the current lack of amenities?  

[THuckaby2]

It seems like two of the biggest mysteries on the list are Friar's Head #14 in NY and the Kingsley Club #20 in Michigan.  Is it just a coincidence that neither has built a formal clubhouse yet?  Could it be that many of the raters are influenced by current lack of amenities?  

Jimmy:  I would hope that's not the case, as clubhouses or lack thereof are not part of the proper assessment.  There is a criterion for "ambience" but read the definition of it... it's all about the course, not any amenities.

That being said, who knows, maybe that does prey on the minds of the less thoughtful raters.

I hope that's not the case.  But it could well happen.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

It's interesting that Rustic was GD's Best New Affordable course a year ago, but didn't even crack the state's top 30.  Maybe if they doubled or tripled the fees, it might rank higher.  

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