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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2005, 08:31:16 PM »
Wild Horse a links course????

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2005, 08:49:46 PM »
Jonathan

I agree.

Wild Horse a links course?

By what definition?  Is it 'close to the sea'?  If so, which one?

Doug lost me on this one.
 ??? ::) :P :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2005, 08:51:43 PM »
By using google, I was able to find this definition of a links:


The debate rages about the meaning of "links"



By Brandon Tucker, Staff Writer



"I'm going to head out and hit the links."

It's a phrase commonly used to announce you will be playing a round of golf. Commonly you will hear SportsCenter anchors give a "to the links" segue to report a PGA or LPGA tour event. "Links" has infiltrated American golfers' speech habits almost enough to be synonymous with "golf course", but rightly so?

Sometime in the 15th century in St. Andrews, Scotland, someone decided that the west coast of the North Sea would be the ideal place to begin a new game. Golf was born. And like every game, the playing surface needed to be identified. Soon enough, St. Andrews was a 22-hole golf course created on windy hollowed grounds on the west coast of Scotland. It was soon referred to by golfers as "the links".

Yet somehow over the next half-millennium golf evolved and spread throughout the world. "Links," like the game it spawned, was broadened in its meaning. "Links" and "golf course" soon became interchangeable to many golfers, even if the golf course did not possess traditional links qualities.

To find the true definition of the term, we turn to Webster.

How about the plural definition?

Links n, pl. 1. a golf course.

Webster's dictionary, while concise of course, was of little help.

To get a true, more credible definition, we go to the source of links golf.

Sir Walter Simpson was a 19th century Scottish philosopher and the author of the 1887 book "the Art of Golf". The book is said to be the first to contain photographs of golfers in action on the links and is considered a classic especially among the Scottish. He defined "links" as such:

"The grounds on which golf is played are called links, being the barren sandy soil from which the sea has retired in recent geological times. In their natural state links are covered with long, rank bent grass and gorse. Links are too barren for cultivation: but sheep, rabbits, geese and professionals pick up a precarious livelihood on them."

So does this mean in order to have a golf course described as "links", sheep must roam freely among the fairways? While Sir Walter Simpson had somewhat cleared things up, the old Scottish definition appeared outdated.

Donald Steele, a well-known modern English architect and author of Classic Golf Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, defined "links" this way:

"My definition of links is the strip of land which links the sea with more fertile land, often set amongst dunes. The best terrain for golf is sand and that kind of land has minimal agricultural value -- which makes such places ideal."

While there is no mention of sheep, what this modern architect and Sir Walter Simpson both agree on is that "links" is coastal and flat.

At some point between the birth of St. Andrews and the game's migration to North America, the term grew more generic.

William Newcomb is an American golf course architect who has designed several "links" tracks in the Midwest, including Calderone Farms, Thornapple Point and the Moor at Boyne Highlands -- all in Michigan. He also says the Donald Ross Memorial course he built has many links-style holes. So what is the American definition?

"I would define it as treeless rolling area that has water preferably," says Newcomb.

Once again, no mention of sheep.

One of Newcomb's courses, The Links at Whitmore Lake, has certain links qualities, according to Newcomb. While the front nine is flat and rolling, trees and marsh dominate the back nine. Links golf characteristics such as water, wind, rolling terrain, pot bunkers and sheep are near non-existent on the back nine. They are replaced by forest-lined tight fairways and marsh.

Newcomb says that some developers may name their course a "links" course for marketing reasons. While many courses with this claim can be true in character, some do not adhere to traditional links golf.

"It may help define the course," says Newcomb, referring to the naming of a course. "It could also help make the course more attractive to certain golfers."

American courses can try as hard as they wish, but to achieve the true links experience, many golfers have chosen, including Newcomb, to head to Scotland to get the real deal.

    
So how does the average American golfer, who has been raised on groomed, fair golf courses with little exposure to the elements Scottish golf is known for survive across the pond? Newcomb has played his share of courses around the world including Scotland and even in the 1963 Masters at Augusta as an amateur. He is not so sure there is any way you can prepare for the shock of links golf.

"You have to just go do it," says Newcomb. "Go over and experience it. It's a different concept over there, a different theory. There's a lot of hit and run."

Newcomb says the first thing that a golfer new to Scottish links golf will notice is the wind. What they won't notice is where to hit the ball.

"Golfers look down the fairway and don't see a well-defined hitting area," says Newcomb. "Unlike courses here that show you where to hit the ball, the golfer must define it themselves."

Another big difference in links golf is the greens.

"Their greens are much different," says Newcomb. "They aren't designed to accept 'target golf.' They are very rolling, undulating and very challenging."

The average size of the greens are also bigger, according to Newcomb. Some greens are even double greens. You could even be faced with a 200-foot putt.

As golf came across the Atlantic, did "links" come too? Apparently, but what didn't come across is the true style. The unfair pot bunkers that hide in the middle of the fairway, the punishing heather, and piercing wind are all traits that can be emulated, but not duplicated.

Golfers can say they will be on the links in America all they want, but unless they are facing daunting winds, massive greens, naturally rolling fairways and dunes and perhaps bearing witness to an occasional sheep grazing in the fields, they are on a golf course.



"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2005, 03:27:06 AM »
Finally, somebody has hit on the fourth and most essential quality of links.  The land must connect the sea to "more useful" land.  My understanding of the term has always included this aspect.  I spose this may be how the term "links" came about.  

There must still be some links land outside of GB&I.  I have not seen it, but it must be out there.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2005, 04:26:39 AM »
Flying over the Netherlands, there is land that looks like links. Also,    is there not bona fide links in New Zealand and Australia? What about some parts of South America?
John Marr(inan)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2005, 04:40:31 AM »
Paul Richards and Steve Lang,

Thanks for the info.

So, back to my question,

Would Prairie Dunes Qualify ?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2005, 05:52:28 AM »
Barnbougle sure looks linksy to me.

Pat - I would categorize Prairie Dunes as more a heathland copy than a links copy.  

JC

Patrick_Mucci

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2005, 06:10:09 AM »
Barnbougle sure looks linksy to me.

Pat - I would categorize Prairie Dunes as more a heathland copy than a links copy.  

Why ?

Where does it fail the links criteria ?
[/color]


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2005, 06:49:13 AM »
Patrick

I've played Prairie Dunes and I think the name is very apropos.

However, there is no seaside anywhere near there.

So, in short, the answer is No.

 :) ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Nyk Pike

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2005, 12:27:50 PM »
This message brought to you by Grant Rogers, Director of instruction, Bandon Dunes Golf Resort.

Is there a true Links course in the USA?  My favorite defination of a Links course is, land that was reclaimed from the sea.  Bandon and Pacific Dunes have been created on sand based soil on cliffs above the Pacific Ocean.  Sea shells have been found during and after the construction of these wonderful courses indicating that the courses have been built on land that has been reclaimed from the sea.  Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes aren't like Links courses they really are Links courses.  They have the sand, the gorse, the hard and fast fescue fairways and greens, the ocean and the wind that are intergal parts of all great Links courses.  Head west toward the southern coast of Oregon.  Bring your clubs and your best golf swings.  You will enjoy Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.  They really are Links courses.  

THuckaby2

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2005, 12:42:10 PM »
That's a great way to look at it, Nyk.  Works for me.  

But I'd guess there are those who have a more strict definition.  Not me, mind you - I go the other way and sure as hell do buy Wild Horse and Sand Hills, not to mention all the courses at your place of employment, as "links" because for me it's all about how they play - but I have no doubt there are those who would argue about those seashells, and point out the lack of the "link to other more useful land."

 ;D

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2005, 12:43:09 PM »
Will Bandon Trails feature fescue turf, and will it also play like a links?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

THuckaby2

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2005, 01:04:06 PM »
Will Bandon Trails feature fescue turf, and will it also play like a links?

GREAT question.  From the pics it sure looks like it...thus I assumed so...  but one does never know for sure.

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2005, 01:52:57 PM »
Will Bandon Trails feature fescue turf, and will it also play like a links?

GREAT question.  From the pics it sure looks like it...thus I assumed so...  but one does never know for sure.


Mr. Huckaby,

Yes

THuckaby2

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2005, 01:56:29 PM »
Mr. Johnson:

Thanks.  I had no real doubts, couldn't imagine why it WOULDN'T be that way and five figures worth of marital capital to be spent come early June has me damn well hoping it has to be this way....

But Pete's question was a fair one, that's all.

And you can call me Tom.  Hell my Dad isn't even Mr. Huckaby.

 ;D ;D

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2005, 04:05:26 PM »
All I can say, is that I have had the privilage of laying most of the great links course of England  and Scotland, and Pacific Dunes is in my top 5 links course in the world.

MWP,
Either you are taking this whole 500th Post thing way too seriously or GCA & living in America have finally rotted your brain!!!

 ;)
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2005, 06:00:39 PM »
Martin..somewhat of a Freudian slip..do you think?

I promise you, I think the brain is still Brit intantico

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2005, 06:59:44 AM »
Pat - Here's my take.  Forgetting the no ocean proximity aspect, Prairie Dunes is not a good example of a links course for the following reasons.

1.  The fairways are too level.  Links courses with underlying sand ridges and dunes are inherently lumpy.  PD fairways with a soil base look more like pastures - more level and even.  Consequently, PD plays much softer than a links course.

2.  The bunkering is less random at PD than, say, an Old Course.  The Maxwells generally situated bunkers at landing areas and around greens in more predictable, "constructed" fashion.  A links course looks more like bunkers are littered everywhere (Muirfield, Troon) in a random fashion (after all, many of them were!).

3.  There are too many trees, especially on the back nine, at PD to well resemble a links course.

I have a number of friends who are members at PD and I love the course and playing there.  My comments are academic and not critical.  You seem to think PD has links overtones.  I would like to hear your reasons.

JC    

A_Clay_Man

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2005, 08:52:45 AM »
Paul Richards, If you use the proximity to water as the strict criteria, why doesn't Beverly qualify?

That west side ridge of the old lake, was likely all sand dunes at one time. And most of the southside, until recently was not good for any other use.  ;D

Also, If Wild Horse isn't a links, what is it? Parkland? No. Heathland? no.

Mooish?

Pat_Mucci

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2005, 09:59:29 AM »

Pat - Here's my take.  Forgetting the no ocean proximity aspect, Prairie Dunes is not a good example of a links course for the following reasons.
When you stand on the third, or other elevated tees, what do you see ?
Prairie Dunes was a sea and certainly seaside at one time.
[/color]

1.  The fairways are too level.  Links courses with underlying sand ridges and dunes are inherently lumpy.  PD fairways with a soil base look more like pastures - more level and even.  Consequently, PD plays much softer than a links course.
Prairie Dunes's fairways aren't level.
You're caught up in the low light picture of TOC.
Are Troons fairways lumpy ?
Are Turnberry's fairway's lumpy ?
Prestwick's, Western Gailes's, Gullane's ?
Prairie Dunes's fairways aren't substantively different from most of the above courses.

How does Prairie Dunes play softer ?
Which gets more rainfall, Prairie Dunes or the West coast of Scotland ?
[/color]

2.  The bunkering is less random at PD than, say, an Old Course.  The Maxwells generally situated bunkers at landing areas and around greens in more predictable, "constructed" fashion.  A links course looks more like bunkers are littered everywhere (Muirfield, Troon) in a random fashion (after all, many of them were!).

Using the Old course is a poor example due to the fact that the golf course was designed or evolved to play backwards, hence, in it's present form, bunkers that may seem random, had purpose.

I don't see the bunker patterns at Prestwick, Western Gailes, Gullane, Troon or Turnberry as different then those at Prairie dunes.  Just take a look at the constructed nature of the bunkers at Troon, especially some of the green side bunkers.
They are far more manufactured looking then the bunkers at Prairie Dunes
[/color]

3.  There are too many trees, especially on the back nine, at PD to well resemble a links course.

Those trees are relatively recent and that issue is easy to fix.
If the trees were gone tomorrow would that change the lay of the land ?
[/color]

I have a number of friends who are members at PD and I love the course and playing there.  My comments are academic and not critical.  You seem to think PD has links overtones.  I would like to hear your reasons.

As you drove the road to the club entrance weren't you stunned by the sudden appearance of substantive elevation changes, changes manifested by the dunes at Prairie Dunes ?
Elevation changes created by a sea and/or a receding sea.
The formation of the land, the land for links, meets the criteria, only it happened quite a while ago.

Is there any difference in playing Prairie Dunes and some of the courses mentioned above other then the proximity of the sea, today, and a few, recently introduced trees ?
[/color]


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2005, 12:44:21 PM »
Links has nothing to do with flat or rumpled fairways, or placement of bunkers etc etc.  Usually links is associated with firm, dry conditions.  This has more to do with how a club maintains the a links, not how one defines a links.

It has to do with:

1.  Land squeezes between the sea and usually arable land unless the land has been built on.

2.  Sand based because the sea was once there.  

I am sorry, but a course out in Nebraska or wherever is a not seaside, hence it is not links.  It may have characteristics of links, but it ain't links.  I grant that that Sand Hills may play like a links, I don't know, never been there.

Perhaps these courses mentioned which play like an ideal links course need a new classification.

Ciao

Sean

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2005, 04:09:20 PM »
neolinks?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Wayne Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2005, 07:13:58 PM »
Wouldn't a bunch of the Long Island courses qualify?-  Shinnecock, National, Maidstone, even Atlantic.  And it seems to me that Montauk is also in that category.  And how will Sebonac stack up?

Pat_Mucci

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2005, 08:51:24 PM »
Sean,

Links has nothing to do with flat or rumpled fairways, or placement of bunkers etc etc.  Usually links is associated with firm, dry conditions.  

DRY ?  In Scotland.

Do you know what they say about the Isle of Arran ?

If you can't see the Isle of Arran, it means it's raining.
If you can see the Isle of Arran, it means it's going to rain.
[/color]

This has more to do with how a club maintains the a links, not how one defines a links.

It has to do with:

1.  Land squeezes between the sea and usually arable land unless the land has been built on.

2.  Sand based because the sea was once there.
Then Prairie Dunes would qualify.
[/color]  

I am sorry, but a course out in Nebraska or wherever is a not seaside, hence it is not links.  

Prairie Dunes was seaside for millions of years.
[/color]

It may have characteristics of links, but it ain't links.
How can you say that, if it has the characteristics of links, it must be links.
[/color]  

I grant that that Sand Hills may play like a links, I don't know, never been there.

Perhaps these courses mentioned which play like an ideal links course need a new classification.


Pat_Mucci

Re:No True Links course in the USA??
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2005, 08:58:23 PM »
Wayne,

Wouldn't a bunch of the Long Island courses qualify?-
NO.
[/color]  

Shinnecock, National, Maidstone, even Atlantic.
Only Maidstone comes close.
[/color]

And it seems to me that Montauk is also in that category.
 
And how will Sebonac stack up?

In what category ?
It's certainly not a links course.
[/color]


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