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ian

Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2004, 03:23:23 PM »
Adam, Your comment facinated me about Ross, I'm curious to here someone chime in with an example

Here is a great example of a hole that plays like all the "real" redans that I have played, but does not have any bunkering like a classic redan. Is this still a redan, or is the bunkering just as important as the angle and slope of the green.

The tee shot



I also illustrated this hole to expalin all the slopes clearly, and the most common strategy used to solve this difficult little devil.


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Matthew MacKay

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2004, 06:43:41 PM »
For what it's worth, Ian, I really enjoyed playing the 17th at Ballentrae and I did run the ball up to the green.  

The only thing keeping me from believing the 4th at Toronto is an authentic Redan is the small area available to run the ball onto the green.  From the tee it appears you have hardly anything to work with.  Regardless, it's a great hole and I don't remember the last time I felt so perplexed standing on a tee as I did on that particular hole.
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TEPaul

Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2004, 06:46:43 PM »
Ian:

The hole in the photo looks exactly like Gil Hanse's #8 at Inniscrone. Like that hole it seems to me the hole would play more like a redan if the tees were 30-50 yards to the right.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2004, 08:04:26 PM »
TEPaul,

Something about the green and it's relationship to the hollow look different.  It would be interesting to see a current photo taken from behind the tee.

While I too love the Redan at NGLA, I thoroughly enjoy playing the variations.  There is something exhilarating about playing them and enjoying the challenge they present.
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Jim Thompson

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2004, 10:03:24 PM »
Question-

How necessary is length to affect the strategic value of the Redan, given that Shivas can no doubted hit a high cut with a 5 iron to a 210 yard green?

Consider this Redan:

258,230,192,158,100

From Back Tee (grow-in Fall 2003-flag is dead center):




Aerial of Green (August 2004):


Length was a consideration on the overall design for just that reason.  That reason to stick it Shivas any chance we can get ;D!

Cheers!
JT
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 10:49:55 PM by Jim Thompson »
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Jim Thompson

Joe Hancock

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2004, 10:05:56 PM »
Jim,

Tell us again how many sg. ft. that green is? Beautiful pics, btw...

That pin looks like its only 3 feet tall....

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Paul_Turner

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2004, 10:15:52 PM »
Nice pic Ian.

Tom Paul is right.  In my mind Colt's 4th at Toronto would play more like a redan with a tee to the right.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 10:17:02 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Jim Thompson

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2004, 10:17:12 PM »
Joe,
It’s a solid 13,500+ pushing 14,000.  Absolute width of 57 yards and depth of 44 yards.  Not accounting for diagonal width or depth.  Front right to back left drop is at least 5 foot.

Do remember Shivas' quote from the last get together in Battle Creek?  He made it sometime after the fifth or sixth Heineken when he started to refer to himself in the third person.  I’d hate to misquote him.

Cheers!

JT
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 10:18:00 PM by Jim Thompson »
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Jim Thompson

Joe Hancock

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2004, 10:32:29 PM »
Quote from: Jim Thompson on November 21, 2004, 10:17:12 PM

Do remember Shivas' quote from the last get together in Battle Creek?  He made it sometime after the fifth or sixth Heineken when he started to refer to himself in the third person.  I’d hate to misquote him.


Jim,

I'm pleading the Fifth here, mostly  because I understand Shivas could kick my butt in the third person!

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2004, 04:54:20 AM »
Jim Thompson;

That's amazing how large that green is but still looking at the way that green is angled (it looks almost perpindicular to the line of play), bunkered and designed I wonder how well the shot values work at some of those longer tee areas. In the photo anyway it doesn't look to be much of a reasonable strategy to try to run the ball onto the right side of that green.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 04:56:32 AM by TEPaul »
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Jim Thompson

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2004, 10:35:42 AM »
Tom,

Here is a better lay of the land look at the hole.  I scanned in a shot from the yardage book we use with the addition of a red X to indicate where the "aerial photo" was taken from.



In the first pic from the tee the hump up to the right is actually the forward tee, which is elevated approx 12 foot above the lowest point of the fairway.  As for the right to left run on... if the pin is any where other than the left third run on or miracle high left to right cut 20 feet right of target is only chance of getting close.  The movement of the tees to the left as they work back also impacts the need to truly control the shot.  I'll try to get a pic from the front edge of the fairway this afternoon to better show and maybe a level photo from back left of green to better show green slope and right side knoll.  A lot of contour is lost in these two pics.

Cheers!

JT
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Jim Thompson

Robert Thompson

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Re:Discussing the Redan
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2004, 03:00:28 PM »
There seems to be lots of examples of redans, so what is the definition? What truly defines a redan? The fall away on the back of the green?
I assume the basis for all redans is Berwick, so I assume that would be the model for the definition.
As for Ian's diagram of Toronto's fine fourth hole, I'll let you know that a high cut 5-iron can put the ball to a few feet where upon one can make birdie. Otherwise, a fade to the right side, even off the green, leaves a fair chip and a good shot at par.

Robert
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Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

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