[Bill_McBride]

Where the devil is Painswick?  

[Clay Huestis]

A brief comment on the Spanish entries:

Valderrama (currently 77th) essentially replaced it's slightly older brother Sotogrande Old (69th in the original list).  Valderrama was originally called Sotogrande New.  Old was built in '64, new in '75, both RTJ designs.  In '85 Jaime Patiņo bought the New, changed the name, pumped a lot of money into it, made it the best conditioned course in continental Europe, and brought the Ryder Cup there.  Certainly, exposure goes a long way in rankings.  I'm sure I am in the minority on GCA, but I actually like the course  .

El Saler, in Valencia, fell from 50th to 93rd.  I suspect there are two reasons.  First, I don't imagine too many raters have gotten to it, since it is kind of out of the way.  Secondly, it has fallen into a horrible state of disrepair (it's state owned now, through a government tourism group).  The Spanish Open was held there 3 years ago, and they played the ball up in perfectly dry weather...and the fairways were the least of the problems!  The course is in dire need of some TLC and tree pruning/removal.  In the right hands it has enough underlying quality to be back in the top 50.

[Marc Haring]

Clay.

Are there any other Spanish courses that perhaps should be in the updated list. La Cala, Las Brisas maybe? I've never played any of the Spanish courses but know so many people that frankly have become boring in their non stop gushing praise of them.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mike Clayton has played some of them in tournaments and I know that he has praise for Puerta de Hierro.

[Clay Huestis]

Clay.

Are there any other Spanish courses that perhaps should be in the updated list. La Cala, Las Brisas maybe? I've never played any of the Spanish courses but know so many people that frankly have become boring in their non stop gushing praise of them.

There are some other good courses in Spain, but nothing that I think would sniff top 100 status.  In Madrid I have only played Casa de Campo, a solid Javier Arana layout (he of El Saler fame).  I have heard that Puerto de Hierro is the best in town though.  I live in Barcelona, and don't know the Costa del Sol courses very well, but hear that Valderrama/Sotogrande/San Roque are the best 3 down there.  

In my area there is nothing that really jumps out.  The PGA de Catalunya is on a lovely sight and is a good test for the pros, but has had conditioning problems since it opened.  The new El Prat course (45 holes in total) that just opened near Barcelona was built by Greg Norman's company.  I haven't been there yet, but praise has been effusive so far.  This replaces the old El Prat club near the airport, which had 18 holes by Arana and 18 by Dave Thomas but has been bulldozered to make way for a new runway.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark

We played a lot in Spain and Peurto de Hierro and El Saler were the standouts - a long way ahead of the rest.
There were a lot of courses built in the tourist boom of the seventies and not much from that era, anywhere in the world,seems to command much respect these days.
Las Brisas is a perfect example of a course you could find anywhere in America - and in America no one would even think of it.

The great courses  seem to reflect the personality and character of the countries they are built in, whether it is France- (Morfontaine,Chantilly) - England- (Sunningdale,Walton Heath,) - Scotland - (Gleneagles Muirfield,Carnoustie,St Andrews) Australia -(Royal Melb NSW),New Zealand (Paraparaumu)- and to try to translate one countries character to another is often a failure - Las Brisas, (Florida )The Australian (Florida) The Oxfordshire - and most of the new courses in Asia.
The old Asian courses like Singapore Island and Royal Selangor were not great courses but they were uniquely Asian.

The nature of the business and the reverence the rest of the world had for the famed American designers of the sixties,seventies and eighties meant 'overseas' courses simply became copies of the courses being done in America.

It seems a lot of that happened in Spain in the seventies.
El Saler is terrific - even in bad condition it is the first place to play in Spain.

[Marc Haring]

Thanks for the info Guys.

Mike.

Interesting concept that a nations best courses reflect the personality and character of the country they were built in and that misplaced copies did not always work. I think I agree. Maybe it is worth a new thread?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mike,  

Thanks for your insight.  Was the Australian a special course before it was redone by Nicklaus?  Does any of the original survive?

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark
I hesitate to use the word tragedy ... but it was sad and proof of the not always valuable combination of money and power.

It was a wonderful course and perfect for where it was
MacKenzie had some influence but I am not sure how much.
It was built on a sandy,dune property not far out of the middle of Sydney.
In the summer it was that typical burnt out yellow colour and it was usually very windy there because it was so close to the sea. It was a perfect course for where it was and you could always run the ball up onto the green when you needed.

Importantly ,it was a course perfectly suiting the city and the country.
Kerry Packer - the richest man in Aust. and owner of the biggest TV network - and a member of the Australian -  decided he wanted to make the Australian Open a world class event and that included Jack Nicklaus rebuilding the course.
I think it was Jack's third job - certainly it was one of his early ones.
They kept most of the original holes - all of the front 9 - which became the back 9 - and the current 5th,6th,7th,8th and 9th.
10 and 11 - a 4 and a 3 - became the opening par 5 and 2,3 and 4 are new holes.
3 and 4 play around and over a new lake and water was introduced at 7 - making it the toughest 2nd shot in the world when the wind is blowing- and at 17 and 18.

Pine trees appeared out of nowhere,the grass changed to a perfect green.the bunkers look typically American as opposed to the perfect simplicity of the originals and the green recieved more of the same and became almost unplayable in a high wind - especially for the members.
There are hundreds of courses exactly the same in America

Bob Harrison - Greg Norman's designer in Aust. is a member and got very tired of members asking him what he thought of the course.
Finally he told one something like ' I would cut down all the trees.tear up all the grass, hire a bunch of low flying planes,load them up with bombs and let them go. Then I would come out and see what was left and start from there'

They don't ask him anymore - for which he is thankful

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