[W.H. Cosgrove]

Don
Thanks for your comments.  It has been a lot of work on the part of the committee and the superintendent to educate the non believers!

We now have a club of believers and we are only in our first year of this extra aggressive program.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,

Tom, our greens haven't been aerified in two seasons and the thatch is building. The cutting height hasn't changed at all but the greens are playing slower this season although not for putts under 15' or so. That's not the case when putts start to get up over this number, the ball slows down, gets heavier and stops quicker at greater distance.
Hopefully our scheduled visit from the Green Section will convince our Super to not skip this maintenance practice in the future.

[TEPaul]

igrow;

At GMGC, we didn't overseed with A-4, we gassed our decades old greens (mostly poa) and started anew with A-4. The greens were terrific right out of the box but the feedback from the courses who did it ahead of us (Aronimink, PCC) is in about the third year they really hit their stride which frankly is pretty awesome!

[TEPaul]

JimK:

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying. What kind of grass do you have on your greens?

[Marc Haring]

I don’t think that thatch would actually in itself, slow greens down. After all, it’s below the surface, so how can it?  But I agree with W H Cosgrove, it can cause bumpy greens and therefore slow the putts up.

However, if the maintenance meld, if I can borrow a phrase, creates thatch, then my guess is that it could lead to slower greens. Thatch is an accumulation of dead grass and is caused by the production of dead grass being greater than its removal either by mechanical means or biodegradation, if that makes sense. Anyway, thatch accumulation normally goes hand in hand with over feeding and watering hense slower greens.

Here’s a pic of a thatchy green where it is clear to see the mower has sunk into the thatch and caused scalping at one point. Footprints are also evident and will result in bumpiness. The pic was taken on big name course that I will not mention because I was part of a hospitality day that everyone much enjoyed. I sunk my only decent length putt on this hole, which just goes to prove I am one lousy putter. Oh and these greens were very quick, maybe about a 10.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
What I was trying to say was that I believe thatch has greater effect at the end of a putt and little, if any, on the rolling speed.

My observation of our greens over the past 3 seasons(bents) leads me to believe that a ball rolling on the surface of a thatchy green versus one rolling on the surface of a non-thatchy green will pass the 20' mark of a 30' putt at the same speed. The 10% figure your superintendent friend suggests is, I believe, more accurate for the end of the putt, as the ball slows.

[TEPaul]

JimK;

A golf ball is not going to slow down less or more quickly because it's hit from a greater or lesser distance. Using a constant speed on the same portion of green surface it doesn't matter if the ball is coming from a long way off or starting out on that same portion of green (again I'm talking about using a constant speed factor on the same portion of greenspace).

One of the ways I can recognize a fast greenspeed fairly accurately even on TV is what happens when the ball begins to slow down. On greens that stimp in excess of 11 the ball continues to roll out very slowly on some portions of greens that stimp at that speed or higher---and on greens less than perhaps 8 on the stimp the ball comes to a halt very quickly. Some of the "playability" problems with some greens (the more sloped and highly contoured ones) in excess of 11 on the stimp (12 or 13) is what I call "ball creep". In other words the player may think the ball will come to a halt but it doesn't---it continues to "creep" on even a slight slope or contour! On greens that fast the player often also has the option of playing up to 3 to 4 TIMES AND UP more break than on greens that are stimping at less than 9. Between greens that stimp at 10 as opposed to 11 (and up) the exponential effect on "playability" can be enormous!

[Doug Siebert]

I can second TEPaul's observations about A4 bent.  My course burned off and reseeded its greens with A4 last fall.  Previously they were a 50 year old bent/poa/mutt blend that was becoming harder and harder to maintain due to disease and stress.

There was also quite a lot of thatch, though it wasn't perhaps so obvious until seeing these new greens where the only brown dead grass is on old ball marks.  Previously any section where the grass was a bit thin was thatch, which made it very difficult to get really true greens.  When they were really shaved down and running at their absolute limit of playability they were true, but they could never survive such treatment for long.

Things are getting interesting already this summer, now that we've gone a bit over a month with only an inch of rain they are getting quite firm (perhaps more easily due to the lack of thatch) and rolled very true even earlier in the season when they were not quite as fast was typical.  Though lately they've been speeding them up, perhaps they are trying to see how quick they can get them -- I'm not really knowledgeable enough to guess the speed they were at, but I don't think we're too far from where things get too crazy.  We're probably about like TEPaul's club in the slope of the greens from what I gather so we're probably looking at 11 or so being the absolute limit so I'd have to guess we're at 10-10.5 lately.  On a few times had I ever seen them faster than they'd been lately, but the neat thing is that they've been this fast for several weeks now, previously the only times they'd play them this fast was a few weeks after the spring and fall aeration.  During the summer the heat didn't allow them to run them fast except for a few days for tournaments.

Interesting to contrast this with the replacement of the bluegrass fairways with A1 bent.  The tight lies are nice (or at least would be if my swing problems due to an off season shoulder injury didn't leave me completely unable to hit any iron shots this season)  But damn it is amazing how softly my sky high drives land on them even with firm ground.  Definitely has cost some roll during the firm ground times -- I'd almost get better roll finding the thinner areas of the rough now!  Also makes some of the more severe slopes in the fairway play differently.  Previously there were some places where it was almost impossible to keep the ball on the fairway.  Now it doesn't land as hot, so it stays in the fairway, but it makes you play from some more interesting lies than you'd typically get during the dry season since the ball couldn't ever stay in those places.  Very cool that without the thatch, you don't get cuppy lies any longer, unless you run into an old divot.

All in all, quite a difference in playability.

[Steve Curry]

Dave et al,

Thatchy greens are (bad), insert expletive. One can't have even somewhat firm, thatchy greens.  If you roll thatchy greens they bounce back, picture a compressed spounge.  The footprint and ballmark excessively and yes that does serious damage to speed and truth.  Also thatchy greens tend to have a wider leaf blade and more grain which both, most know are like brake pads.  I keep my greens as lean as possible groom agressively periodically and believe it or not don't core aerate or topdress and still have minimal thatch and if I wish and the weather is conducive I can as my members have phrased roll out the "Curry Concrete".  To alleviate root-zone stress I deep-tine aerify once a month, very easy and the members don't mind at all.

Regards,
Steve

PS: one of the things that kills me is that a lot of clubs that have thatch problems either don't allow the super to do anything about it or the super is too intimidated to push for remedies.  Either case dictates better communication and understanding.

[TEPaul]

Doug:

It does sound like your course is going through the same things as mine is with this new A-4 grass. Tell those that run the club don't bother pushing the greenspeeds up on your new A-4 because this strain can easily handle a whole lot more greenspeed (and do it pretty much stress-free compared to what both of us used to have) than either of our greens can reasonalble handle playability-wise.

If your greens are like our greens in slope and contour 11 is the limit you really don't need to go beyond---that number can and will really challenge anyone, particularly if the greens are firm enough where a really good 9 iron will only lightly dent the greens (no dirt is pulled up in the pitch mark)!

If you get over 11 the club is going to think you've gone crazy on your pin settings athough in reality they're no different than you've always had.

The good news is weather permitting you can keep your greens at or near that speed most all the time as this new A-4 just loves dryness and is near to stress free, so that's one of the old limiting and agronomic "danger-zone" factors neither of our clubs will have to worry about much anymore.

Also this A-4 gets much better maintenance and playability-wise in its second and third years!

[Doug Siebert]

Since this is a public play course there's going to a limit to how crazy they can go to avoid scaring people away, so I'm not too worried about it.

Though it would be kind of fun to have a "crazy day" once or twice a year where they run them at 13 just for the hell of it.

[Dave_Miller]

Dave et al,

Thatchy greens are (bad), insert expletive. One can't have even somewhat firm, thatchy greens.  If you roll thatchy greens they bounce back, picture a compressed spounge.  The footprint and ballmark excessively and yes that does serious damage to speed and truth.  Also thatchy greens tend to have a wider leaf blade and more grain which both, most know are like brake pads.  I keep my greens as lean as possible groom agressively periodically and believe it or not don't core aerate or topdress and still have minimal thatch and if I wish and the weather is conducive I can as my members have phrased roll out the "Curry Concrete".  To alleviate root-zone stress I deep-tine aerify once a month, very easy and the members don't mind at all.

Regards,
Steve

PS: one of the things that kills me is that a lot of clubs that have thatch problems either don't allow the super to do anything about it or the super is too intimidated to push for remedies.  Either case dictates better communication and understanding.

To the Treehouse:
Thanks for the input.  We have gotten great information from all of you and this will prove to be quite helpful. We obviously have missed a few things but are working to bring them back.
Excuse my tardiness in thanking everyone.  I went to London this past Friday and just got access to the internet with my laptop today.

Steve does the monthly deep-tine aeration replace pulling the cores once or twice a year?

Thanks again everyone
Best top all
Dave

[TEPaul]

Dave Miller asked:

"Steve does the monthly deep-tine aeration replace pulling the cores once or twice a year?"

Steve:

That was my next question after reading your post. Would you mind explaining to us agronomy novices (I'm serious) what all the distinctions and differences are agronomically (and to playability, if you wsh) between "core aeriation" and "deep tine aeriation"?

I'm assuming the primary purpose of "core aeriation" is to actually pull as much of the thatch out with the removal of those "core" plugs. But what about "deep tine aeriation"? What's the primary purpose of that--just to get more oxygen and such into the root structure?

You didn't think us non-agronomists were interested in the little things you do and need to do, did you Steve?

Well, if you didn't think we were interested you'd be wrong about that!  

[Pete Lavallee]

Also, could you explain exactly how topdressing actually reduces the thatch. We have soggy greens at my home course and while playing with the greenkeeper recently he indicated that it was a lack of manpower that keeps him from topdressing frequently enough and that has led to a layer of thatch, which is the reason for the sogginess, not overwatering. We aerify and topdress twice a year like all of the clubs in our area. Thanks in advance for the reply.

[Marc Haring]

I don’t wish to steal Steve’s thunder in any way but if I could just put in my viewpoint on the questions.

Pete.
Your question regarding top dressing and thatch control. I think thatch is controlled through top dressing primarily by thatch dilution. Thatch is partially decomposed organic matter and if it is pure, it will cause sponginess, disease, poor drainage etc etc. But if you regularly add a low organic matter soil amendment such as sand or maybe 80% sand 20% topsoil mix, you will essentially dilute the thatch and end up with what would be described as an organic soil which isn’t perfect but it’s better than straight thatch. Also sand addition could aid drainage by creating air pores within the soil which in turn will help in full thatch decomposition, (the bugs that naturally break down thatch require oxygen to work), and also if the top dressing is not sterilised, you could be adding bugs that will help thatch breakdown.

Tom Paul.
I think the deep tine aeration Steve was referring to would be something like vertidraining, at least that’s what we call it in the UK. Basically it is a machine that goes on the back of a compact tractor and sticks these tines in the ground at anything up to 10 inches deep. The tines go in and the tractor moves forward so that when the tines are pulled out, a leverage takes place. It’s great for getting a lot of air into the greens. All forms of aeration have one purpose, to get air in and toxic gases out and there are a myriad of forms. I managed my greens for 5 years without core aeration but have had to revert back to this method just this last year because of anaerobic conditions, black layer and stuff like that. As Steve said, it can be done if you run the greens lean. That way you don’t build up much thatch anyhow so you don’t have to control it.

[TEPaul]

" (the bugs that naturally break down thatch require oxygen to work), and also if the top dressing is not sterilised, you could be adding bugs that will help thatch breakdown."

Marc:

BUGS??? Come on! This is a sophisticated web-site and a sophisticated subject! You can't just say "bugs" are responsible of taking care of some thatch if they're supplied with enough oxygen!

Aren't there special bugs for L-93 and other bugs for A-4 and maybe some southern bugs for Tiff-dwarf or Tiff-eagle or G-2?

What if I wanted to take my GMGC bugs down to Seminole in the winter when our greens at GMGC have gone dormant? Would my GMGC A-4 bugs be able to do the job on Seminole's Tiff-dwarf or Tiff-Eagle greens or whatever it is they have? Are there bugs that specialize in bermuda strains or poa strains or bent strains.

I gotta know this stuff like yesterday so I can be be damned sure GMGC has got the right kind of bugs and the proper amount of oxygen for them!

Do we need to put these bugs on our payroll or even on our insurance policy?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Pete,
We didn't aerate often due to $$$ issues as well.  You need to ask your Super what equipment he is using.  If it is a drop spreader like a metermatic, it is probably time intensive (expsensive) to top dress.  We have gone from something like eight manhours to less than two by purchasing a "spinner"  which is like a giant broadcast spreader.  We purchased a Dakota demo model for less than $11,000 including tax.  

Last year we topdressed twice (not including aeration) and this year we have averaged every 2.5 weeks.  Our budget is intact ad the greens are much better.  I should be getting a commission!

[pdrake]

This is a very interesting topic.........thanks to all who have contibuted......it makes me re-think why I didn't go to agronomy school.

W.H. - are you saying you top dress your greens every 2 1/2 weeks?

[Marc Haring]

Tom Paul.

Try a little clostridium botulinum, some staphalococcus aureus,  a couple of billion pseudomonas flourocense, and a real good helping of escherisha coli. That ought to do it for you, but don’t take them all at once.  

[TEPaul]

Marc:

That's funny. It wasn't more than a month ago I was out on our course with our super and our regional USGA agronomist, Stan Zontek, and they started talking like that, so I told them they were worse than listening to a bunch of brain surgeons in the operating room just before the effects of anaesthia got you!!  

[TEPaul]

Marc:

This year I've developed an excellent way of stopping talk like that from people like my super and our regional USGA agronomist.

I just look them both squarely in the eye and tell them;

"I know exactly what you two clowns are up to! There's something potentially disasterously wrong with the agronomy of my golf course and you two are trying to lie to me about it with talk like that, aren't you?"

That brings them immediately back to talking simple American to an agronomic idiot like me about the golf course!

[TEPaul]

Furthermore, now you've given me an even better defense against that kind of agronomic lingo I hear out there that sounds like a bunch of intellectuals confabing.

I'm gonna tell them---"You guys don't impress me with talk like that, since this guy Marc Haring on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com assures me that this whole profession really just boils down to a bunch of bugs! So cut out that high-fallutin talk and get down on your hands and knees and give those bugs some air so they can do a better job of eating that thatch!"

[Donnie Beck]

I completely agree with W.H. The new spinner type topdressers are a must have. In the past we tried various methods of topdressing but could not stay ahead of play due to all of the dragging and brushing required to work in the topdressing. With the new spinner we can now topdress 5 acres of greens start to finish in about 2 1/2 hours. We topdress every other week and verticut and topdress about once a month.

[TEPaul]

In my opinion a thread like this is what makes GOLFCLUBATLAS.com as valuable as it can be!! There's just some great info and advice on here from our superintendency contigent. Thanks Dave Miller for asking and all those who contributed some interesting info.

Of course, a guy like Matt Ward would probably fall asleep in the middle of this thread because it doesn't exactly translate into which course in New Jersey should come in at #17!  

The other recent thread on here about slope, contour and greenspeed can be another good and highly educational one too and probably with some great advice and technical info from our superintendency contingent, as long as one of our super purists on here doesn't come in and hijack it by thoughtlessly insisting all the greens of American classic courses should be taken back to a greenspeed of 5!  

[Marc Haring]

Hey Tom Paul.

You’ve got it in one. But come on, every profession needs its jargon, that’s what enables us to win arguments when even we don’t know what we’re talking about.
 

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