[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt and Tommy

The infrastructure and development costs at Quintero must be phenomonal regardless how inexpensive the land may have been. I hope the developer, who is the largest Ford truck dealer in the US, doesn't run out of money.

Vistancia is about 15 minutes from Quintero off of Lake Pleasant Road. I played the Trilogy(Panks) course there in April. The private course by Engh is under construction now and is set to open in Jan/Feb 2005.At least 2 more courses are planned at Vistancia. The prime developer is Sunbelt Holdings.

Raven at Verrado(Fought/Lehman) in Buckeye is about 30 minutes from Quintero. I played there in April. At least 3 more courses are planned at Verrado. The prime developer is DMB Realty known for DC Ranch and Silverleaf in Scottsdale.

Just west on Carefree Highway from Quintero is Rancho dos Cabelleros in Wickenburg. If you haven't played there, do so because it's a  course with a lot of ambiance.

And don't forget that Lyle Anderson, the developer of Desert Mountain, Loch Lomond,etc, will be developing a community with as many as 10 courses at the White Tank Mountains.

Jonathan

What hole was your ace?

You're right about Quintero as a course; however, the planned clubhouse and 2nd course and the current remoteness of the place make it a good place to visit and experience.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

The issue for me is how Quintero gets rated nationally because Jonathan is 100% correct -- there are other layouts within the Carefree / Scottsdale area worthy of more attention and stature -- Chirichua and Outlaw at Desert Mountain are two that jump quickly to mind IMHO.

P.S. Steve -- I believe Lyle Anderson is looking to design his next big project near the town of Quartzsite.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Quartzsite is 125 miles west of PHX. I doubt that is the location for Anderson's next big project. I understood it was planned somewhere near White Tank Mountain Regional Park which is west of Sun City West and north of Buckeye. I think the closest "town" is Waddell.

You forgot to mention Desert Forest in Carefree and Estancia in Scottsdale, both of which are nationally ranked. You like Whisper Rock. The new WR Fazio course(7800y from the tips!) will open in early 2005. And what about The Golf Club Scottsdale?

Quintero is attractive because of its remoteness. I think raters like the feeling of being alone with the scenery. There are some good holes there but....

Steve

[Jonathan Cummings]

How about 7 Canyons in Sedona (I think that's the name).  I just played with a Digest rater who all but swooned over it.  Got my attention.  Any comments??  JC

[Jonathan Cummings]

Steve - #6 hole at Quintero - 191 yds (3/19/04). A three iron - nothin' but net!  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jonathan

re Seven Canyons

I played there during my April trip. Spectacular scenery in the Red Rocks which  sometimes detracted from the golf. The course is a par 70 with one par5 on each nine. As usual, Weiskopf has some interesting short par4s with small greens. The planned clubhouse looks great. The only knock on the course from what I've heard is the compact routing. Ron Whitten is supposed to visit there this fall. A high-end time share(excuse me, fractional ownership) community with maybe 25 building lots, most of which are sold. Many from Scottsdale are buying just the membership.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Matt_Ward]

Ditto with Mike C's comments on Quintero.

Steve:

I do agree about Whisper Rock -- in fact, I think it's the best course in AZ for the totality of what you find there. In my mind, it's the more modern version of what you see at desert Forest.

The Estancia Club is a fine Tom Fazio layout but I would not have it among my best 5-6 courses in AZ. It's somewhere below that and part of the reason is that the facility maxes out on applying too much H20 to the turf.

Let me also mention Chapparal Pines in nearby Payson -- superb Panks / Graham design that often gets little attention to the more scenic eye-candy neighbor course The Rim.

Clearly, if Lyle Anderson is moving west of Phoenix along with others it will be interesting to see how that side of town reacts to what was previously done along the Phoenix / Scottsdale border many moons ago.

P.S. Plus -- I'll say this again -- Chirichua and Outlaw are two superb layout that get far too little attention both in AZ and throughout the nation.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
There is little doubt in my mind that Tom Huckaby would find this to be a very "fine" golf course.

Once again, I think you can probably guess what I think of it as far as golf courses go, but let me just say this about that..........."Rees Pieces Alive And Well In Peoria, Az!"

[THuckaby2]

Matt,
There is little doubt in my mind that Tom Huckaby would find this to be a very "fine" golf course.

Once again, I think you can probably guess what I think of it as far as golf courses go, but let me just say this about that..........."Rees Pieces Alive And Well In Peoria, Az!"

Care to expound on that, Tommy?

Them could be fightin' words.. or maybe not.  I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, you jolly ole elf.  One thing is for sure:  there are very few golf courses that I wouldn't call "fine."  But that being said, I do know great from good from ok from crap from god I hope I have a lot of beer.  But fine can fit any of those distinctions.

 

Always look on the bright side of life...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,

There is little doubt in my mind that you wouldn't for one second find this a FINE golf course. No doubt at all. I posted it and have no qualms in doing so.

Chicken Little signing-off

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
Yours may qualify for post of the century. Great stuff!

While you were much more verbly leinent to Quintero then you probably could have been, you pretty much it it on all the right spots.  I was also surprized because I thought this was a golf course that Jon loved.  I'm glad he saw what I saw in the place.

But this isn't to say that Quintero is a bad club. I in fact think its probably just the opposite.  Certainly the head pro Tom Wilcox, formerly of Philly CC is somewhat of a very bright spot, as is the beauty of Quintero itself.  They just need a better golf course to accentuate it.  I say "can the plans" of the Norman Course which looks to be even less walker friendly then the Founders Course, and then call Bill Coore.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Great post re Quintero. I couldn't find the words to express my feelings after playing there for the third time this April.

You said it all when you posted,"However, the repeated visits to Quintero have resulted in a diminishing view of the course each time." Needless to say, during my first visit I reveled in the scenery and the remoteness of the course and the holes seemed interesting. On my second visit, my wife had her hole in one so I really didn't think too much about the holes while celebrating afterwards. This year, I paid a lot of attention to the course and just came to your conclusions-formulaic holes, predictable bunkering, little risk/reward,etc. I think the problem with its high rating is raters are impressed the first time and then don't come back.

Re walkability, other than the old clubs- Arizona CC, Phoenix CC and Paradise Valley CC- how many other courses in the desert are walkable and/or have caddies? You mentioned TGC Scottsdale and Outlaw. Have you played Silverleaf? If so, any comments? I know the TPC Desert course is very walkable with a pull cart.

Tommy

Where's the pic of the 16th?


Steve

[johnk]

When I looked the pix before reading the Ramius quote, I was thinking: "Tommy's going to rip this place to shreds... I can't wait..."  And then: "I wonder if he's being fair with all these pix, all the holes look the same... maybe he's using angles and those repetitive cut-lines unfairly..."

Well, I'm impressed with the restraint.  I was waiting for incisive remarks about the lack of interior hazards, the containment and the  repetition.. but maybe I'm wrong about those things and expecting that treatment...

One more thing - I think that the years reading the experts on this site has really worked for me.  I originally thought -- "Oooh, Fazio bashing coming up"...  but after looking at the pix, I thought - this is a Rees deal... and I was right!  Yay!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
Without leashing into one of those tirades of ineptitude while screaming Architectural Malpractice, I wanted to avoid having this post erupt into the 1st and 4th biggest posts and  page views in GCA history (See "Rees Jones Article in Cigar Afficianado" and "Rees-Pieces Alive And Well In Ranch Sante Fe")

They were memorable posts, all of them, and everyone involved in them, but with Quintero, I was trying to exude a little more subtlety in comparison to Rees who seemingly did everything in his power to make this look, play and feel like a golf course designed from New Jersey plan table via topo map.

It seems we both succeeded in getting our points across!

I have more photos, many showing how fairways are cut into natural grades, and in some places, they followed the land, but what is now becoming the fast modern killer of way too many modern golf courses--the all out bivwac to make sure a course has complete underground drainage whether it needs it or not, the cuts are somewhat embarassing and make little sense in regards to strategy. If ever there was an effort that proved C&C, Doak, Hanse and others who seem to utilize natural surface drainage as well as thoughtfully add it where it might be needed, it would be both Quintero and Desert Mountain's Outlaw course.

Now that picture of the 16th.....

Sorry, but the shadowsrequired me to work on this one in Photoshop.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

I found your analysis on Quintero to be spot on. Maybe sonmeone can explain to me how it is nationally rated by at least one publication?

The Outlaw and Chirichua combos at Desert Mountain really float my boat much more than Quintero ever could.

I will also say that for some strange reason why Whisper Rock is not rated even higher that it is also makes me question what people are thinking.

The layout at Quintero seems as if it has been "beamed" (sorry to use the Star Trek term) onto the location it sits. It doesn't use the land in an imaginative manner and I was wondering if Rees simply used a cut'n paste variation of different holes from other layouts.

Clearly, the land is there for a stellar 18. I'm hoping Greg Norman can use the momentum he gained with Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO and add something of quality to a setting that calls out for top quality golf. Quintero is a fine layout but there's way much more to AZ golf than is there IMHO.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
From my understanding, a couple of holes it wasn't even cut and paste. (I would rather not go into detail for harmony's sake)

I also don't want anyone to get me wrong Quintero as a place is very special.  I would imagine owning a house there eventually will be too. The staff is First Class.  They'll never have to worry about a caddie program and I'm sure that it will be a premiere place to play, not matter how mediocre the golf might be.  I just don't understand why they thought/think building a golf course(s) on the most extreme land as being a GREAT thing.

How it was rated Top 100, let alone #37 (I think it was #37) is beyond me, but once you factor in the Big World Theory......

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

One key aspect to understand people who rate facilities is to have them declare what else they have played in a given region / area before one can assume they know what they are talking about in regards to the layout they rate.

Sometimes raters land in mass at one course and through either ignorance / stupidity, you name it, forget or ignore what else is in that area.

Whisper Rock is a superb layout and I believe AZ's best. I also see Chirichua and Outlaw at Desert Mountain as top tier courses that get far little attention. Outlaw is new so maybe that's the reason but again there are those who would think that since Nicklaus did Outlaw that it must be the same pro forma Golden Bear layout. How wrong they are.

Like I said -- Quintero is a fine layout but I'm convinced that it is of national acclaim. That might happen with the second layout by Greg Norman though. We shall see ...

[Mike Kane]

In addition to the repetive par 3's, each of the preceding holes seemed to have the same characteristics, uphill to a green you really couldn't see with a pin tucked behind a bunker.

It is wonderful setting.

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