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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #200 on: March 03, 2004, 08:24:22 AM »
Gyro - hell of a good post...

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #201 on: March 03, 2004, 09:20:52 AM »
Curse Wisconsin!  Go Spartans.  They're saving their stuff for the Dance!

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #202 on: March 03, 2004, 09:33:15 AM »
That is one hell of a GREAT post from Gyro.

I really believe that this needs to be a constant reminder re these lists:  there truly is no one way to look at golf courses, and there is no "right" and "wrong" in any of this.

You have a way with words, Gyro.  Someone should hire you to write a golf column or something.   ;)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #203 on: March 03, 2004, 09:50:18 AM »
Gyro,

Let's see that personal top 50 listed on a new thread.  As a public personna you owe it to your fans!  

I have already been grossly disappointed in Forrest Richardson's decision to leave us hanging on the front nine of Foulpointe - I can only assume Mutan et all passed out from some fruit they reaped - and would hate to see your teaser linger for long.

Hope you're coming to KPIII and bringing your sketching pencils.  

Please?

MIke
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #204 on: March 03, 2004, 09:58:01 AM »
I really believe that this needs to be a constant reminder re these lists: there truly is no one way to look at golf courses, and there is no "right" and "wrong" in any of this.

Gyro, Tom IV et al. --

Granted, there is no one way to look at golf courses. Right you are!

BUT: I respectfully but as vehemently as possible disagree with the proposition that "there is no 'right' and 'wrong' in any of this."

It is, IMO, just plain wrong for raters to accept special treatment (free green fees, free lunches, free golf balls, etc.) from those whom they are judging. Period.

David Moriarty got it exactly right in his Post No. 72 of this thread, on Page 3. Please reread it.

I would add what I've added previously: These golf publications should pay their raters' green fees.

Please don't tell me I'm "dreaming." I know I am.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #205 on: March 03, 2004, 10:16:31 AM »
Good to see this evolving into a "March Madness" thread.  The over/under is now offically at 15, unless the Jesuit schools go home early......

PS--living over in Scotland I don't get much news on hoops in the local rags.  Can anybody tell me how Stanford is doing this year?  Thanks in advance. ;)

Rich - I'm sure you already know (since you probably were a large contributor) but Maples is now in the R&R stage of its $ 30 million extreme make-over ... the players will have to use trailers as locker rooms and I am sure this will effect their performance ... but then again, these trailers will be outfitted as nice as a small Atherton guest cottage ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #206 on: March 03, 2004, 10:25:16 AM »
Dan:

You mean post #68 on page 3?  That is good stuff, for the most part.

But I don't think David said the magazines should pay for the green fees - that is YOUR addition, which is a great one.

Make that happen and then we have something.  Of course we both know the chances of that happening...

So while I continue to understand the dangers involved in raters receiving freebies, well... assuming that our present reality holds and the magazines aren't going to go to this type of largesse, the issue I have that by denying comps to all raters, you price too many otherwise worthwhile raters out of the game, making the perspective only that of those rich enough to afford to pay their way all over the place and pay the large green fees at the many courses raters are required to see.  I'm not sure that in the end this is an overall benefit, even if doing what David says would solve some issues.  

Eliminate gratutious gifts and other freebies, yes.

Make raters pay for all green fees?  I'm not so sure.

And given that reasonable minds are differing on even these very basic issues, I will stick with my truism that there is no right or wrong on any of this.

TH


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #207 on: March 03, 2004, 11:05:23 AM »
Dan:

You mean post #68 on page 3?  That is good stuff, for the most part.

It was Post #72 when I read it. Someone's been deleting posts again.

But I don't think David said the magazines should pay for the green fees - that is YOUR addition, which is a great one.

Yes. That's why I said "I would add...."  8)

Make that happen and then we have something.  Of course we both know the chances of that happening...

Actually, I don't think we both do. I think you think there's no chance. I think there's one chance in two: Some magazine will do it that way, or no magazine will.

I'll grant you that the second of those two possibilities seems considerably more likely -- but I will hold out my slim hope that, someday, some publication will decide to do these rankings the way I'd do them: with a small, statistically insignificant group of extremely well-qualified, articulately opinionated and systematically reimbursed raters, rather than with these faceless, humongous panels that lead to so many ethically dicey situations.

... by denying comps to all raters, you price too many otherwise worthwhile raters out of the game, making the perspective only that of those rich enough to afford to pay their way all over the place and pay the large green fees at the many courses raters are required to see.

Reimburse your raters for their green fees, and this "problem" disappears. (Besides: You're not honestly going to contend that many otherwise worthwhile raters have already been priced out of the game, are you?)

To all of you raters:

Do us a favor, OK? Over the course of this year, keep track of your ratings-travel expenses and of the green fees you'd have paid in the course of doing your ratings if you were paying what the public pays (at public courses) and what a standard Guest pays (at private courses). At the end of the year, add it up and report it here.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #208 on: March 03, 2004, 11:18:32 AM »
Dan:

You're preaching to the choir re most of this, and it surprises me you don't see that.  Did you miss my line that said:

"assuming that our present reality holds and the magazines aren't going to go to this type of largesse"?

All of my arguments are based on no magazine taking this step.  IF THEY DO THIS, then you have an improved system.

If you think this is going to happen, well... I wish I had your optomism.  I don't see any chance of it.  But in any case, I did agree with you that if it happens, a lot of the perceived issues from outsiders do go away... and raters of lesser financial means aren't priced out of the game, which I continue to think is a good thing.

One more thing though, and this is just a question, with no advocacy at all, asked only to try and help my understanding of the issues here:  if every golf course gives comped green fees to raters, then how are some courses giving "preferential treatment"?

Free = free = free... why would a rater be tempted to rate one free course better than another?  Or what else is the issue here that I seem to be missing (fully acknowledging that I have not read all of this thread, nor will I, because the whole thing is tiresome to me and I'm just discussing it now because I'm bored).

That's what I don't understand re all of this.

Oh, and btw, here are my totals for 2003 (rough, off the top of my head):

Rounds played where comped or discounted green fees were given:  5.

Rounds played where full-price was paid:  app. 80

Courses for which ratings were submitted during the year:  app. 100 (many based on play during 2002, which is allowed).

Maybe I'm different from most rating panelists, who knows.  But man, comped green fees did little for me in 2003, one way or the other...and it's really not difficult to separate out the quality of the course from the free round I got at those five...

TH
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 11:22:54 AM by Tom Huckaby »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #209 on: March 03, 2004, 11:29:15 AM »
To all of you raters:

Do us a favor, OK? Over the course of this year, keep track of your ratings-travel expenses and of the green fees you'd have paid in the course of doing your ratings if you were paying what the public pays (at public courses) and what a standard Guest pays (at private courses). At the end of the year, add it up and report it here.

Dan,

I did just this exercise in 2002.  Including airfare to get to courses, hotel expense, rental car expense, golf items bought strictly at rated courses (Balls, gloves, etc.) caddie fees that I paid, meals, mileage to and from the airport, parking, etc. the total was $14,784.  This figure did not include greens fees for the 46 courses I rated in 2002.  Add an average of $100 per green fee and we are talking about $19,000 I would have needed to be reimbursed.  To be fair, many of these expenses were covered by my company as I typically rated courses in concurrence with a business trip.  If I was strictly to pay and be reimbursed, I'll bet the number would have ended up in the $10,000 range for 1 national course rater.  Not exactly the freebie that I always get so pissed off at when people accuse raters of.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 11:31:48 AM by David Wigler »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #210 on: March 03, 2004, 12:42:27 PM »
Shivas,

Furthering your comments, since Geoff S. implied that the outings and freebies at Southern Highlands and Cascata influenced their improved ratings, it's entirely possible (I don't think he considered it) that neither course had enough ratings prior to the outings to even qualify for the Top 100, hence their seemingly sudden rocket up the charts.  It's possible that that's where they would have fallen anyways had they had enough ratings prior.

It's true that these outings 'bias' against those other possible courses out there with high enough but too few ratings.  That has happened before.  Fishers Island was not on many GD lists in the past because few raters had seen it.  Same with Crystal Downs before Doak "discovered" it 20-some years ago.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #211 on: March 03, 2004, 12:45:23 PM »
I'm sorry, but these theories really, really, really appear to be based almost exclusively on the fact that some guys are PO'd about the fact that other people are getting an occasional freebie that they aren't.  It's really coming off that way and somebody needs to say it.

I can speak only for myself, and you can believe me or not, but I'm not the least bit PO'd about the fact that you and quite a few others here are getting occasional freebies that I'm not.

What I'm PO'd about is the fact that you and quite a few others here won't acknowledge this essential truth -- as distilled by Mr. Moriarty:

"Conflict of interest exists whenever a person charged with impartiality accepts something of value from those about whom he is to remain impartial."

I don't have any doubt, Shivas, that if you were involved in a court case, and your opponents in that case were slipping little favors to the judge and the jury, you would see the problem -- even ABSENT the all-importance "evidence" of corruption that you're demanding from those of us who find fault with comped rounds (etc.) for raters.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #212 on: March 03, 2004, 01:11:01 PM »
In your jury example, presumably the other side pays off jurors, then they acquit the bad guy, right?  Well there you have it.  Wrong has been done.  A guilty guy got off.  Once that's established, then you figure out why.  

No, sir.

You would object -- and very properly so -- the instant you learned about the payoffs.

You would not await the verdict.

You would argue, as vehemently as the law would allow, that the payoffs THEMSELVES were wrong, even absent any subsequent wrong.

I'm curious, counselor:

What is your analysis of this statement of Mr. Moriarty's: "Conflict of interest exists whenever a person charged with impartiality accepts something of value from those about whom he is to remain impartial"?


"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #213 on: March 03, 2004, 01:39:25 PM »
To be perfectly honest, I don't even know why anybody is responding to this complete, total, utter red herring argument.

Shiv - And I was hoping you were going to comment on March Madness ... or tequila ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Gib_Papazian

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #214 on: March 03, 2004, 02:16:18 PM »
Conflict of interest? Poppycock.

I recently played an incredibly expensive golf course in the company of only the Head Professional.

A nicer guy you could not hope to play with. The facilities were stunning. But the routing is a mess, the holes are routed up and down instead of straddling the ridge (using some interesting land forms) and the orientations on half of the tees were designed to show off the views at the expense of good golf.

It was a fine course, but not up to the hype on closer examination.  

Remember, these ballots are secret. I don't care what a panelist tells the GM, Head pro or Club Secretary, the ballots are private.

If Gray Davis had handed me a bag of money outside the polling place in exchange for my vote not to toss his ass out of office, it would have made no difference.

What people say and what they do are two separate issues.

I believe that most panelists - when the moment of truth arrives  in absolute privacy - pull the lever for the candidate they really want to win just as the number in the box reflects how they *REALLY* feel about the golf course.  

There is nothing to gain where is nothing to lose.

   

Gib_Papazian

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #215 on: March 03, 2004, 02:16:43 PM »
Scott,

I am going to politely decline a posting of my Top 50. If time permits, I would not be averse to piecing together a list of courses I think are under-rated.

However, I do not pretend that my personal tastes (or lack of) have any validity whatsoever. It just the opinion of one person on the particular courses I seem to hold in higher esteem than the majority of panelists.

That stated, The Pit would definitely make it into my Top 50. Years ago, when I was down in Pinehurst, The Pit was our "afternoon round" for five straight days - even with the incredible selection of courses in the area. We simply could not stay away.

I look upon that golf course as far more than an amusement or curiosity. It occupies its own category in my mind, perhaps just as Tobacco Road does for others.

It is difficult to square in my mind the disparity between the body of work Dan Maples has produced and The Pit. How that came squirting out of his pen is a mystery . . . . maybe it was always in there, struggling to get out.

Shivas et al:

Something occurred to me a little while ago. GW employs a worksheet by which a panelist can theoretically place a number (based on an impression) in a given category and then make a calculation that produces an overall evaluation.

I am not sure how often panelists actually go thorough the exercise, but given that the process was conjured up by an academic, it makes sense. In truth, I find little disagreement in GW or GD’s methodology.

But it somehow reminds me of the opening scene in Dead Poets Society, where Robin Williams is reading to the class a theory as to how a poem’s individual words can be dissected and therefore adjudged.

His comment at the conclusion of the reading was: “Excrement.”

Not that I agree. I certainly do not, but it represents an opinion worth discussing.  I’ll bet the vast majority of GW panelists simply come up with a visceral overall number, and put it in the box.    

Nutcakes like me tend to agonize over things, maybe I need to get a life.

As for panelists in general, I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of raters - which particular panel is irrelevant - do not study the subject with passion.

Of course, maybe too much knowledge brings the law of diminishing returns into play. There are a few of us, and WE know who we are, that might be better off not boiling our brain about the details instead of trying to relax and enjoy the ride. I’m still thinking about it.  

Which brings me to today’s revelation in the personal growth department:

Why so much reliance on the numbers?  They are a bit too confining. I know there is only room on a scorecard for a number, but as i stated on a previous post, sometimes numbers lie and there is more to the story.  

Gyro is marching under a different flag these days, which puts me into the interesting position of having seen the battlefield from both sides of the line.

Both have their merits and both have their drawbacks.  But there is one aspect of my current citizenship I find appealing: The ability to articulate my thoughts as an addendum to rating scores.  

I’ve been told that most raters only write a line or two, but if that is all you have to say after 4 hours on a golf course, you are either being lazy of not paying sufficient attention.    

I regularly write 200 words or more because like Hunter Thompson says: “Writing about something forces me to confront my true impressions and feelings on the subject.”

I wonder whether giving panelists an essay question about each course and giving it equal weight with the numbers makes sense.

Of course, this would complicate the issue, but ratings are really based upon opinion and impression because it is impossible to quantify feelings with any more than general accuracy.

You would need somebody at the top to wade through all the prose, but it might serve the process better to ask that panelists justify their numbers with words.

Half baked, but worth a thought. . . .
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 02:49:22 PM by Gib_Papazian »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #216 on: March 03, 2004, 02:34:07 PM »
Gib --

You'll note that my Modest Reform Proposal calls for a small group of "articulately opinionated" raters.

Such raters would, by definition, be prepared to discuss and debate their ratings and their rankings -- in the pages of the publication for which they rate.

A bonus of my Modest Reform Proposal would be: articles about the rankings (and about the courses within those rankings) that would be considerably more interesting than the current number-centered, list-focused articles generally are.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

A_Clay_Man

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #217 on: March 03, 2004, 02:48:50 PM »
Gib- Catharsis is good, ain't it? Perhaps a more practical solution, to some of the tightness within the numbers, would be to add another decimal place. Rather than just the half point increments, tenths might help seperate the wheat from the chaff.
 
I know I have a tendancy to bunch a lot of courses into the same over-all rating. I'd find it easier to seperate them by tenths.
i.e. Spy and Stevenson Ranch. I probably gave them similar numbers. But, i'd prefer to show the diferential by at least a few tenths, because half is too much. Does that make sense?

I have no idea if this notion is feasable. But it sure would be alot easier than getting the magazine involved more than they already are.

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #218 on: March 03, 2004, 02:52:09 PM »
AC:

Over on the dark side, everything is done in tenths... and also narrative description is allowed... come on over...

TH


Gib_Papazian

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #219 on: March 03, 2004, 03:01:07 PM »
Adam,

That is a partial solution, but there is already the ability on one of the panels to divide individual category ratings by .10.

Good thought, but it still smacks of hair-splitting. Not that its a bad thing, don't misunderstand me, I just want to see a guy (or gal) justify the which details pushed him over the edge to award the extra 1/10th point.

Huckster,

"Trust your feelings Luke."  
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 03:02:51 PM by Gib_Papazian »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #220 on: March 03, 2004, 03:01:57 PM »
Hey, i'm just an ignorant newbie. I have full faith and trust in our bulletproof leaders ability to discern the proper methods.

Tom- as tempting as it sounds  ;) I just could not do it, ever. But thanx.

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #221 on: March 03, 2004, 03:05:28 PM »
AC:

Never say never.   Read carefully other posts in this thread.  That's all I'm gonna say.  ;)

And Gib/Obiwan:  thanks.  I fear my problem though is I tend to do this too much....

TH

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #222 on: March 03, 2004, 03:12:46 PM »
AC:

Over on the dark side, everything is done in tenths... and also narrative description is allowed... come on over...

TH



Huck, you crack me up....  May the "Fores" be with you! 8)

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #223 on: March 03, 2004, 03:13:43 PM »
Mike, I aims to please.  So much is too serious here, including a lot of my rantings.  A little levity very rarely hurts.

TH

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #224 on: March 03, 2004, 03:17:27 PM »
Adam, you (I think inadvertently) raise an interesting issue.  All comp rounds are banned tomorrow.  Then (go with me on this) certain courses start blocking off a few tee times in front of the raters before they show up, so that the round isn't slow.  Others manicure the course immaculately.  Others get the rater the best damn caddie the place has.  Others go all out and get Catherine Zeta-Jones as the 4th with the rater, the pro and that hottie from Average Joe - Hawaii.  And we're right back in the same predicament, with the conflict guys screaming about the unfairness of some courses getting C Z-J for the 4th and others forcing the rater to play with the chain-smoking ex-con +1 hdcp. who works in the cart shed.  

Where does it end?

It ends when the course you are playing doesn't know you're a rater.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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