Pat

I can't begin to tell if these mounds at Shawnee are finished or not.  It is hard  

Tom P.

If "alpanisation" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?

Tommy Mac

You are right in that the photo in your excellent article, The Rise And Fall Of Criticism, demonstrates the superior mounding work at Mid Surey.  However, Pat pointed out that the mounds of Shawnee may not be finished.  

Ciao

Sean

Sean, you asked, "If "alpanization" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?"

Wayne responded, "I never connected "Alpinization" with the Alps hole at Prestwick or its principles but rather the use of hills and valleys that in small-scale imitated the Alps mountain range itself."

The term "Alpinisation" used by Tilly refered to the architectural style of mounding, traps and grass hollows employed at the Royal Mid-Surrey club. If you go to their web-site you can see how this has evolved down to our day on the holes that still have the originals.

Depending upon the course, Tilly (& others) built them large or small and every size and conmbination in-between.

It is time that "Alps in America" brings to mind Mid-Surrey rather than Prestwick.

R-MS started their mound program in 1910 and finished about 1914 to replace the harsh steeplechase Victorian style mounds Tom MacWood makes mention.  Peter Lees was the head supt then and made a large contribution to their making, along with itenerate Irish labo(u)rers and some stout horses.

Does it add up?

Wayne & Philip

Cheers.  Though I find it odd that somebody (who did coin the term?) would coin this term without intending to reference the original hole.

It was my impression that Mid Surrey first alpinised their course and Tilly followed a few years later without knowledge of Mid Surrey.  

The term "alpinisation" as it relates to golf rather than biodiversity strikes me as very American.  However, using an "s" in the spelling suggests that a Brit coined the term.  Somebody out there must know the origin of the term.

Ciao

Sean

"Tom P.
If "alpanisation" doesn't refer back to Prestwick's Alps, what does the term refer to?"

Sean:

In my opinion, the term "alpinization" refers to rough mounds as an architectural feature. Examples of them in early American courses are Merion East, Pine Valley, Shawnee, and probably to a lesser extent Somerset Hills. It wouldn't surprise me if Tillie didn't come up with the term. He sure did use it a lot in his constant articles in magazines and newspapers for close to 25 years. There ae captions under photos in the magazines he wrote for showing what he was referring to as "alpinization". Obviously if he thought the photographic examples and captions were all wrong he probably would've said something about it.

J.H. Taylor, believed he virtually invented this concept of rough and somewhat radical mounds as an architectural feature. He called them "Mid-Surrey mounds". Those can be seen in photos too with that term in the captioned discription.

The "Alps" concept is a hole concept, not really a series of mounds like "alpinization" and "Mid-Surrey mounds". Tillie may also have called this mounding type of feature "dolomites".

"....However, Pat pointed out that the mounds of Shawnee may not be finished."

I believe Pat is absolutely right about that. Anyone can see there's really no grass on those "alpinization" features in those photos. Let's not have this site jump the gun on what features look like "pre-grassed" as they did on Merion East's bunker project. Many of the contributors on here, including me, think they know an awful lot but in those long and critical threads on Merion East's bunker project they obviously didn't know enough to understand that some golf and hazard features look a whole lot different when they've had a year or so to "grass-in".  

Tom P.

Perhaps I need to get me eyes checked!

Ciao

Sean

DMoriarty, et. al.,

I think you have to be careful not to blend distinct architectural features into one catch-all category.

It would appear that there was the "Alps" a larger intervening feature, alpinization, mounds and berms.  And, that these features could be used in different locations, serving different purposes.

I've often wondered if the large rear berm at # 3 at NGLA wasn't there for two purposes.
1  To act as a backstop or safety net for errant shots given the long and blind approach into that green.
2  To act as a protective barrier to those on the 4th tee.

Now it may serve a third purpose.
To block some views of Sebonack.

Crcular and straight mounding behind greens along with mounds or berms behind greens was a common AWT feature, not to be confused with "alpinization"

If you'll look at early photos of Shackamaxon, especially the 9th green you'll see the, behind the green feature.  The 14th hole also has behind the green mounds, as opposed to the longer berm like feature that appears elsewhere.

I don't know if we'll ever know AWT's definitions for these features, or if he consistently classified them over his designing years, but, perhaps we should define or view them in their seperate forms and functions.

"Tom,
Do you think the mounds to the right of the par 3 6th at Lancaster were a form of Alpinization?"

Wayne:

Yes, I do. There's no question of it at all---none---zero!

I thought you knew that already. Those were Flynn's versions of J.H.Taylor's "Mid-Surrey" mounds, or Tillinghast's "Alpinization" but Flynn's were a bit lower with much broader bases and they were referred to as "Poconoization".

I thought you knew that.  

These people on this website are a bunch of frauds basically. They act like they know something about classic golf architecture but they really don't know crap.

You know those mounds on the right of the 9th hole and on the left of the 16th hole at GMGC. Those things are Donald Ross's version of Taylor "Mid-Surrey" mounds or Tillinghast "Alpinization", or Flynn's "Poconoization" except they're called "Berkshireization". They're examples of semi-early Ross mounds from his Massachusetts period.

"I thought you knew that already. Those were Flynn's versions of J.H.Taylor's "Mid-Surrey" mounds, or Tillinghast's "Alpinization" but Flynn's were a bit lower with much broader bases and they were referred to as "Poconoization"."

Thanks for the laugh.  Sue is looking at me like I'm an idiot.  Even more so when she saw what made me laugh!  

Watch out, Malone is going to see you talking about Poconoization and he'll be a believer  

Phil,
The term Alpinization wasn't Tillie's. He just expounded on it. I have come across several items calling it out in the 1900's, before Tillinghast was even designing golf courses.

The drawing here



looks like it's probably a drawing of this hole at Shawnee. The aerial was taken in 1939. North is at the top. I'm not completely convinced since the map in Course Beautiful shows this hole as #13, not #10 but it's possible the ordering of the holes changed over 20 years. Also, the hillside tee mentioned in the drawing would fit about where the ridge can be seen to the left of the green at the bottom of the picture. The length of the 10th hole mentioned in AG is 339 yards which is pretty close to the 353 listed on the course map. The course map lists #10 as 522 yards which also suggests that the hole order was changed.



Considering the ground-level photos, I'd guess that both were taken from about the middle of the mounds, this with the camera facing north towards the Binnekill



and this with the camera facing generally southeast towards the rest of the course and the NJ heights in the background.

Mike Cirba,

Travis's features were varied, some large and some smaller in scale.

He used specific words to describe them, the names of which escape me at the moment.  On the smaller features it was something like asparagus, broccoli or Brussels sprouts.  Some refered to his larger features, with truck like size, as choclolate drops.

Again, you can't use one catch all category to describe all of the features these fellows crafted.

"......On the smaller features it was something like asparagus, broccoli or Brussels sprouts.

Patrick:

Must you continually show your ignorance on here, even about the architecture of a golf course you belong to?

Devie Emmet never did any architectural features that were  referred to as brussel sprouts. Asparagus and broccoli, yes, but never, I repeat NEVER did he do any brussel sprouts!!

And it's brussel sprouts with a small "b" not a capital "B" you dimwit. Brussel sprouts with a capital "B" are small children from a particular section of the city of Brussels in Belgium.

Devie Emmet never did any of those either, Well, maybe I shouldn't go quite that far.