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JohnV

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #200 on: October 07, 2005, 11:08:02 PM »
Some things never change.



Paul, if you were a member of the USGA, you would have received the newsletter. ;)  It is not online so you can stop asking for others to post it.  It is way to long to type in and it would be a copyright violation to do so.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #201 on: October 07, 2005, 11:30:45 PM »
John

Actually, I AM a member of the USGA.

I have just chosen NOT to renew.

I assume that the membership runs through some certain date, but am not sure what that date is.

The renewal is for a future date.

I have moved addresses and have not received anything other than the renewal notice from the USGA for some time.


It amazes me that they can find me when they want something - like money - but cannot find me when they have something of value to offer a member .......


 :P :-[ ::) :'(
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #202 on: October 07, 2005, 11:56:11 PM »
Pat, I'm playing the newest ball from Nike and it has no problems moving left or right... ;D

All joking aside..I' d much rather hit this wonderful feeling ball than all the Top Flight,s, and Pinnecle's, you could give me...there is no comparison in "feel"....spin...control...durability...you name it, and today's golf ball is superior....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #203 on: October 07, 2005, 11:58:21 PM »
Daniel, green speed is probably the number one reason why scores have not be coming down...and yes, longer rough is another factor....

However, all of these efforts to defend par, and many that you didn't mention, have been instituted by the membership of that particuliar club...talk about ego!
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

JohnV

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #204 on: October 08, 2005, 12:04:53 AM »
John

Actually, I AM a member of the USGA.

I have just chosen NOT to renew.

I assume that the membership runs through some certain date, but am not sure what that date is.

The renewal is for a future date.

I have moved addresses and have not received anything other than the renewal notice from the USGA for some time.


It amazes me that they can find me when they want something - like money - but cannot find me when they have something of value to offer a member .......


 :P :-[ ::) :'(

Did you inform them of the change of address?  

Renewals for all things like memberships and magazines are frequently handled by outside companies who have the resources to track people down, but don't feed that back to the organization that hired them.

Then again, it could be like my Golfweek magazine subscription which frequently goes 2 or 3 weeks without showing up and I can only assume that there are golfers at the post office.

A_Clay_Man

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #205 on: October 08, 2005, 12:13:20 AM »
DAniel, To answer your query, I believe the answer is because the technology does not help, unless your swing speed is over 115 mph. So, for the majority this issue is a moot one.


Paul, It is no shock that you agree with Daniel,

The YW was for this

Paul, I'll struggle through my Ulnar Neuropathy and re-create this for you. It appears on the bottom of the first page of the issue "Inside the USGA"

Quote
The USGA has hired the best available talent and committed a suitable budget to transform itself into an organization that proactively regulates equiptment and the golf ball. This requires that the USGA and The R&A, St. Andrews, be on the leading edge of the science that has fueled advances acheived by manufacturers. This special issue consists of 15 pages that describe the work already done, offers perspective and addresses questions that face the governing bodies.

In any other issue, this front-page space would be given to an article that describes the most substantial changes ever made to the Rules of Amateur Status. That repeot is on pages 22 and 23.

p.s. I had an idea for all you intent in bringing down the equiptment manufacturers (or is it the usga?)

After witnessing a Ping commercial where they said words to the affect that buying their club "will lower your score". Sue them for false advertising.

Paul, In the middle of this front page of "Inside the USGA" is a red quote from the NYtimes dated May 2005 it reads "The only thing in golf that has not changed is the average score for 18 holes".

p.s. Send in your check
« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 12:17:13 AM by Adam Clayman »

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #206 on: October 08, 2005, 12:17:37 AM »
Craig:

You, as a man who admits to valuing what technology does for your game over golf's history, increased costs, architectural integrity, shotmaking, etc., are going to talk about the EGOS of club memberships who want to keep their courses relevant?

Be serious!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 01:01:32 AM by Daniel_Wexler »

A_Clay_Man

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #207 on: October 08, 2005, 12:18:18 AM »
Did anyone see Tiger drive the 7th today?  I'd say that was shot making.

Limiting options is another negative residual to going backwards.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 12:20:02 AM by Adam Clayman »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #208 on: October 08, 2005, 12:27:26 AM »
Daniel, there is nothing 'relevant" about tricking your greens up so they roll at 11.5 or 12...that is pure ego.

I would wager that the majority of golfers at these clubs have no business asking for faster greens and deeper rough....nor does par need defending from their....ahem...game.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #209 on: October 08, 2005, 03:52:14 AM »
"BTW, the only real justification you have exposed in defending your crusade is the Pride and investment spent by club members, whose courses are in fear of being obsolete. Is that the best you got?"

Adam:

Why do you persist in making such a fool of yourself?  

Earlier in this thread I cited the following four reasons for my "crusade" (slightly abridged here, for those who actually read before they post), all of which I rank a good bit higher than defending any membership against anything:

1) Many of our finest courses are obsolete (or fast becoming) for major tournament play - and Major championships contested at Merion have long held a bit more cache than those played at Kemper Lakes.

2) FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, those same classic courses do not play the way they were intended for most players of reasonably competent ball-striking ability.  Well-designed holes are built to offer advantages/disadvantages from various distances and angles.  When we throw off the distances, we materially alter the equation of how these holes play -- and very, very seldom for the better.

3) Today's records mean virtually nothing.  We can no longer compare modern achievements with old ones in any meaningful fashion.  

4) The game is too damned expensive!!  One cannot compete in even a friendly weekend game without today's vastly more expensive equipment -- and that's not even getting into the increased land/maintenance/property tax costs that this technology mandates.

Later, Pat Mucci added the diminution of shotmaking and I strongly supported that "justification" as well.

Now you may disagree with these, you may value your technology-enhanced improvement above them or perhaps you just don't understand them very well in the first place.  But for goodness sake, if you're going to post on here, at least pay SOME attention to what's going on on the thread before making such thoroughly ludicrous statements.

If you're grasping so little of what's going on here, perhaps there are better ways to be spending your time????

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #210 on: October 08, 2005, 09:13:15 AM »
John

>Did you inform them of the change of address?


I have to assume that they know my new address if they can find me to ask for more money!!!!!
 ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #211 on: October 08, 2005, 09:52:15 AM »
Daniel, regarding your four reasons for crusading:

1) "Obsolete classic courses"...gee, most are nearly 100 years old...did you, or the architect, expect the game to remain the same? Every sport has experienced major changes, why should golf be any different?

2) "Reasonably competent ball strikers have rendered these courses obsolete"....you're crazy...for the majority...a large majority of members, the new technology has not led to this happening...

3) "Todays records mean nothing"....Daniel, today's records are a snap shot in time...this is true for any sport...as I stated in an earlier post, Ben Hogan didn't have a personal trainer, a private jet, a nutritionist, a weight room etc. traveling with him...how can you even begin to compare his achievements with Tigers?

4) "The game is too expensive"  You're a "sports writer"???  Have you researched the costs of golf 30 years ago compared to today.... in todays' dollars??? Have you seriously looked at the costs associated with what memberships are demanding in terms of maintinance these days?  You dwell on ball and club technology and ignore what has happened on the maintinance side of this argument....low mowing heights come with a high cost...and they had 10-20% to the distance factor.  When you say golf is too expensive you make it sound as if the cost of everything else has remained steady...you would be hard pressed to name a single sport that is cheaper today than it was 30 years ago...live with it, or just become a hermit sitting behind a typewriter bitching about life.

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

JohnV

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2005, 10:24:06 AM »
John

>Did you inform them of the change of address?


I have to assume that they know my new address if they can find me to ask for more money!!!!!
 ;)

Paul,

I'm sure that if you contact their Membership department at: http://www.usga.org/questions/contact_us/contact_us.asp

they would be willing to send you a copy if you didn't get yours and make sure your address is correct.

JohnV

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2005, 10:29:38 AM »
Paul,

If you know your member number, you can go to this web address:

https://members.usga.org/manage_information/manage_information.asp

and update the information yourself.

A_Clay_Man

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2005, 11:07:10 AM »
Daniel. I see what's going on here and I am completely in-touch with my facilities.

The first issue that I see is a crusade. I see people jumping on the bandwagon because of repeatedly hearing all the same rhetoric. 150 years of rhetoric.

You have ignored the Ballon Ball piece and the lessons learned, or at least you have ignored repeated attempts to ask the basic question of "why is your crusade different

Another evident issue I see is how you deal with someone who does not agree with you. You put them in some lower class of neanderthal and throw out your own perceived intellectual superiority, with insult and child-like retalitory posts,.

The truth is DANIEL, I don't get an ego boost from technology. That's your mistaken interpretation about me. I don't bend over and say, "thank you sir may I have another". Frat boy.

What I have done(and will continue to do) is  challenged the arguement from both you and Geoff. One benefit of my challenge should have been, to allow you to make a more cohesive argument, And ya know what? you both failed. Geoff's failed when he wrote those little words "If you believe in market forces this book isn't for you" And, Your failure is evident by turning this into a personal matter, through insult.


Good night and good luck with your crusade.

I know if you are successfull in regulating the entire big world of golf, by putting the toothpaste back into the tube, you will have messed with the prime directive and made things much worse for many who derive a livelyhood from this multi-faceted sport. Not just the future Architects and superintendents, either.

Homewrecker!

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2005, 11:54:04 AM »
Adam

> I see people jumping on the bandwagon because of repeatedly hearing all the same rhetoric.

I don't think this 'just' a bandwagon.

If you see my other thread with Ron Prichard's letters to the USGA, you'll notice that the dates are 1993 and 1998.

As a reminder, this thread began with my letter, written just the other day, and sent to the USGA when they asked me to pay them money to 'renew' my membership.  

In order for me to part with my hard-earned moola, they need to produce a product worth 'buying'.  The USGA has not done that, IMHO, and, therefore, will not be getting my funds anymore until such time as they actually do what they advertise  -

FOR THE GOOD OF THE GAME.


Indeed!

 :P :-[ :'(
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2005, 11:55:48 AM »
John

>If you know your member number, you can go to this web address:

https://members.usga.org/manage_information/manage_information.asp

and update the information yourself.


Thanks, but is there another way to get our number (on the weekend)?

I mailed it back with my letter ....


"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #217 on: October 08, 2005, 12:15:54 PM »
From what I've seen so far, no one on this thread who's arguing against a rollback or any kind of check on ball/equipment development has articulated where the limit should be, or if there should even be a limit.

If the answer is "here," then there's some grounds for compromise between both sides. If the answer is "let the marketplace decide, because everything is fine," then the USGA might as well get out of the business of setting ODS standards altogether. Is that what you want? And if that's not what you want, please explain what you think the USGA's role in this argument should be?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #218 on: October 08, 2005, 12:37:14 PM »
Daniel,
Several years ago I did some research on the cost of equipment and present day green fees. Nothing 'scientific' mind, you, just done to bolster a position I was taking on a thread about the cost of golf here at GCA.

What I found: Equipment costs are not out of line when using the government's CPI data and comparing that with some old ads. One dollar in 1965 equals $6.23 today, $1.00 in 1980 equals $2.38 today. At present a player can fully outfit themselves with lesser known brands like Tour Edge, AMF, etc., for $300.00 (the equivalent of spending $48.12 in 1965, $125.87 in 1980) or fully outfit with Ping for around $1,500 ($240.58 in 1965, $629.33 in 1980). Also, the used club market is a great alternative which has grown tremendously in the last few years.
Golf balls are absolutely the least expensive they have ever been and so is the quality. A $1.00 spent on one today was the equal of $.16 spent in 1965 or $.42 in 1980.

A quick search at Golfcourses.com showed around 8,500 courses that were less than $26.00 to play today. That's $3.92 in 1960 and $10.91 in 1980.

It is my view that if you take into consideration all the costs to build a course today it's the tremendous rise in real estate in general, not just the extra acreage needed for longer courses, that has the most significant effect on rising costs. It also can effect existing courses: Pebble Beach could be had for $17.00 in 1976. The respective cost using CPI should be $58.68 today, but not when adding in the land values which skewed it all the way up to the present day tariff to play. What is it, $350 or so?

I don't find much to disagree with in your first three declarations but I don't think the 4th should be laid at the USGA's doorstep.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

A_Clay_Man

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2005, 12:50:30 PM »
Especially with GREAT courses, such as Rustic Canyon, Wild Horse, Sand Hills and pacific dunes costing less than 3 million dollars to build.

That's one premise shot.

Quote
1) Many of our finest courses are obsolete (or fast becoming) for major tournament play - and Major championships contested at Merion have long held a bit more cache than those played at Kemper Lakes.

Merion's issue is one of a lack of infrastructure, for all the circus' that go along with the popularity of the sport. Ruined indeed!


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #220 on: October 08, 2005, 01:14:13 PM »
 
John

The site doesn't show what is in their records.  However, they now have my correct information so that they can continue to ask for renewal dues.

However, they will continue to get my letter until they actually do something to address the issues.

 ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #221 on: October 08, 2005, 01:46:04 PM »
Craig & Jim Kennedy:

Basically, I don't disagree with anything you've said regarding the game's cost - especially Craig's point about membership maintenance demands because, by and large,they are silly, unrealistic and unnecessarily (to say the least) expensive.  I cannot concur strongly enough on this point.  And dollar-for-dollar, adjusted for inflation, etc., the game indeed not be anymore expensive than once upon a time (in the same way that this computer I'm typing on has plummeted in cost relative to 10 years ago), but...  This equipment still drives costs up higher than they need to be, particularly relative to land acquisition/tax costs which, as you (Jim) say, have indeed risen exponentially.  All the more reason why the game would be better served by being able to build a reasonably first-class layout on 140-150 acres again, as opposed to 175+.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #222 on: October 08, 2005, 02:14:45 PM »
Daniel, why do you think a golf course has to be 175 acres plus?  First of all, a golf course does not need 5 sets of tees to be relevant, excellent, and challenging. Second, aren't there countless number of top 100 courses situated on less than 175 acres?

I was thinking about maintenance costs the other day while mowing fairways...our back nice is about 300 yards shorter than the front side, and considered a more compact and easier nine....but it takes about 1.5 hours longer to mow the back side....why? Wider fairways!  
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #223 on: October 08, 2005, 02:39:33 PM »
"Second, aren't there countless number of top 100 courses situated on less than 175 acres?"

Craig:

You raise an interesting point because there are indeed a pretty large number, but...  

You don't see too many new courses (at least among those intended to be of a noteworthy caliber) being built on 150 or less acres, partially because even if the architect could shoehorn a design of contemporary length into such a tract, the safety/liability issues are too great.  

Though a talented designer might, I suspect, be able to mitigate this somewhat, a 7,200-yard course will generally eat up more acreage than a 6,700 or 6,800-yarder (we'll ignore, for the moment, the 7,600-yard variety....).  Now, you may write this off as unnecessary ego -- because you're 100% correct that the overwhelming majority of players don't need anything near 7,200 yards to sufficiently challenge them.  But to me, the conceit in memberships/developers/whomever wanting their courses to "measure up" to prevailing standards (however grandiose they may be) is considerably less than that of the fair-to-middling golfer who values his artificial performance enhancement higher than all we've discussed above.

But we obviously differ on this final point.

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #224 on: October 08, 2005, 02:40:43 PM »
"...you will have messed with the prime directive and made things much worse for many who derive a livelyhood from this multi-faceted sport."

Adam:

How?

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