[ForkaB]

Sean & Rich,

So again I ask, especially after the directions it has now gone in, before one makes pronouncements that a hole has a certain feature or not & discuss/argue vociferously over it that by properly defining the parameters of the thing being discussed/argued a less adversarial exchange might take place.

Then again considering those who discuss things out here, and that includes myself, that might be too much to ask for...  

Phil

Hope that you weren't referring to moi.  I know that "alpinization" referred to JH Taylor's work at Royal Mid-Surrey.  I just didn't realise that it was as ugly and, shall I say, "Victorian" as those pictures of Shawnee (assuming Tilly was faithful to the concept).

BTW--I am assuming that you are referring to RMS rather than the non-existent "Royal Prestwick" you mentioned in your post.

[T_MacWood]

Thanks for those pictures of Shawnee, David. I've never seen pictures of "alpinization" before.  Surely they prove that the "golden age" architects were just as capable as the "victorian" ones in creating GCA monstrosities. It's also hard to see any A&C influences in those hideous manufactured mounds.  Can anybody say (or even spell) Loxahatchetee(sic)?

Rich
Tillie claimed he had no knowledge of the mounds at Mid-Surrey when he designed Shawnee, he arrived at those on his own. In fact they may predate RMS's Alpinisation. They don't look anything like the huge mounds Taylor and Lees built at RMS. Ironically Tillie would hook up with Lees later and the two built some very attractive mounds at Somerset Hills, Quaker Ridge and few others.

The original mounds (mountains) at Mid-Surrey were a big hit, I think there were a few reasons for that. First they replaced the most rigid Victorian bunkers I have ever seen.....and the Alpininization was done pretty well, naturalistic. Second the site was dead flat and the earthworks created some interest. And last the scale of these things was impressive.

With all the positive press, understandibly there were a number of imitators. These did not go over so well, mostly becasue they couldn't match the size of the originals. Commenting on the trend Darwin said, "We see little groups of grassy 'pimples' looking like a dog's cemetery plumped down on flat ground." It was a very short lived trend, and eventually even RMS was revised, I believe by Hawtree and Taylor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Moriarty,

Are  you sure that the pictures of the mini-alps were of Shawnee ?

While it's been a while since I've been there, the island is fairly flat without any abrupt rises or falls. let alone massive inclines.

Perhaps Craig Disher can interpret the photos.

Craig Disher,

Is it possible that the massive landform at the back of the pictures is across the river and is either of the steep inclines of New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?

Wayne Morrison,

If ever there was an area for restoration, the fronts of the 4th and 9th greens would seem to be naturals.

A front hole location on # 4 would be world class.

Philip Young,

I think you're right.
One can't make definitive statements with respect to what Tillinghast and others were saying unless you understand their definitions and the context in which they were discussing them.

Otherwise, it's like accepting as the gospel, information that can be false, like, Seminole is flat.

A quote here or there isn't a sufficient enough of a data base upon which to draw irrefutable conclusions.   And sometimes, some of the alleged quotes and writings of those fellows contradicted themselves.

Sean Arble,

It what state is the "alpinization" ?
Early construction ?
Mid-construction ?
Prior to fianl grading, finishing and seeding ?
Finalized ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

Yes, that is a pohoto of the original 10th at Shawnee. You can see a reproduction of the American Golfer phot that Dave used on page 90 in Reminscinces of the Links.

Unfortuanetly, a lot of what Tilly created at Shawnee is now gone.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Regarding an agreed upon definiton of "alpinization" I'd sure go with features like the one in the photos of Shawnee above. That photo was in American Golfer in the teens, Tillie wrote for American Golfer and if he didn't agree that the photo showed what he referred to as "alpinization" he probably would've said so.

I don't know who on here came up with the idea that "alpinization" was supposed to make a shot blind. I don't think that was the intention of it or certainly not necessarily. Just like J.H.Taylor's "Mid-Surrey mounds" which were virtually identical to Tillie's "alpinization" the idea behind this kind of feature was a form of "progressive" penalty that was supposed to be more "scientific" architecturally and in play than the old-fashioned perpindicular cross hole hazard features known as "cop bunker" and such (berms) that were thought to be the height of the "school" known as "penal" architecture . If you don't believe me on that just read what J.H. Taylor, who says he invented the concept, says about it and the purpose of it in the article in the "In My Opinion" section of this website under the title "In Praise of the Ralph Miller Library" by Tommy Nacarrato. That article has a detailed description by Taylor of what that type of mounding was and what it was supposed to accomplish.

I think some of these contributors on here are cofusing "alpinization" with the hole concept known as "The Alps". Almost always that design concept was one where the golfer had to hit over something (the "Alps") that made what was behind it totally blind.

Interestingly, there was a very distinct "Alps" feature at PVGC on the 7th hole at the far right of HHA. Crump very much wanted to use that to create an "Alps" concept (mostly blind second shot) on that hole. To do that he (and Tillie?) planned to shift the entire fairway on the second half of the hole to the right so the ideal shot had to be over that blind "Alps". Crump had re-oriented the green for that purpose but before he got around to shifting the fairway, he died. That Alps feature on that hole was part of a "double-dog" concept. I think it was so good that PVGC should consider finishing what Crump CLEARLY intended to do and was in the process of doing!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil Young,

With respect to Tillinghast, are you and others confusing "alpinization" with "dolomites" ?

[Craig Disher]

Pat,
Which of the 27 holes now at Shawnee corresponds to the 10th in the photo? I have an aerial and probably can determine where the photo was taken from.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig,

I couldn't answer that question.

But, the land across the river, on both sides, elevates a good 100 feet above the island, which is relatively flat.

Phil Young & TEPaul,

If you'll look at Somerset Hill's 4th and 6th holes, and perhaps
# 9, you'll see Tillinghast's dolomites.

It may be that the 5th hole represents his intent to incorporate a dolomite into the internal contouring of the green, whereas the dolomites were external features on
# 4 and # 6.

TEPaul,

I think you made an excellent point a while back when you suggested that, IF SH could maintain the mound in the 5th green, GCGC should be able to maintain the mounds in the
12th green.  Again, it's proof positive that these things CAN be done and adequately maintained if the will to do so is there.

[DMoriarty]

A photo enlargement showing the new 10th green (middle left) and the original green (top left) and new 12th green (top right) in 1924:

Great Photos!

Of course it is difficult to tell from the aerial but I am can more understand how some thought of this greensite as reminiscent of an Alps, if not at Prestwick then at NGLA. Here is an early photo of the Alps at NGLA for comparison . . .

[DMoriarty]

Craig,

Does this help identify the hole . . .

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

That's not the "Alps" portion of the 3rd hole at NGLA.

That's the back of the green.

The "Alps" intervenes between the first and second fairway.

George Bahto,

When did NGLA modify and reduce the fronting greenside bunker on # 3 ?

Craig Disher,

My guess, due to the proximity of the steep incline is that the photo is taken to the west, toward the steeper inclines on the Pennsylvania side.  But, I could be wrong.

If you could get a schematic of the early layout it might be helpful.  Is it wrong to conclude that the 10th would be near the clubhouse across the river ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

You asked, "With respect to Tillinghast, are you and others confusing "alpinization" with "dolomites" ?

No Pat, for myself I can say that I'm not. I'm using the exact phrase and terms that Tilly did. His terms and not mine. If you disagree with his interpretation and usage of these, take it up with him!  

[TEPaul]

I could be wrong but I remember seeing that bottom photo of NGLA while at NGLA. I have a file on NGLA around here somewhere with that photo in it and as I recall I was quite surprised to see it labeled the 2nd or "Sahara" green. As I recall Macdonald moved the green on the 2nd (Sahara) back quite a ways and that green in that photo may be of the original green on #2.

Macdonald moved a few of his original greens at NGLA. #2, #9?, #14 and #17 come to mind. I do not believe that photo is of the 3rd green (Alps), I believe it's the old 2nd (Sahara), but as Pat used to say of himself---I could be wrong.  

[Craig Disher]

There's a routing map of Shawnee in The Course Beautiful which corresponds to the 1938-39 aerials. The mounds shown in the photos don't appear anywhere around the 10th - but it's possible they were removed at some point.



However, at AWT's 14th hole are some strange looking features that may be what was left of the irregular mounds.



Both these photos have north at the bottom. If the camera in the American Golfer photos is facing towards the green, the Delaware River and the heights in NJ are in the background.

There's little if any AWT left at Shawnee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil Young,

Tillinghast seems to intermingle the terms, indescriminately.

Look at the dolomites at Somerset Hills and tell me how they differ in form and substance from the "alps" at Shawnee.

Tillinghast himself seems to blend terms and definitions amongst mounds, alps and dolomites.

TEPaul,

If your theory is correct, from what vantage point and elevation is the photo taken from ?

It would appear to be taken from the left side of the rise in the hill fronting the 3rd green.

In addition, take a close look at the contour of the green with the lower plateau leading back to the upper right plateau.
Does that look familiar to you ?

[TEPaul]

PhilY said;

"TE, who knows the course and its history as well as anyone, has stated that, "Pine Valley's 3rd had alpinization around the right and back right of the green but it was removed pretty quickly. Tillinghast would basically be wrong about "alpinization" that had to be carried over in front of the green. He wrote that in March of 1913 and at that point the first four holes were probably in a state of what architects call "roughed in"."

I must disagree with your analysis on this. In December of 1913, Tilly wrote, "December, 1913 – “It is quite impossible now to describe Pine Valley as a completed course, for many of the holes are in the embryo. Those which have been played are entirely satisfying. Not long ago the discoverer and developer of Pine Valley, Mr. George A. Crump, accompanied by Mr. Howard W. Perrin, Mr. Richard Mott and A.W. Tillinghast, played golf there for the first time… Mr. Tillinghast secured the first par, a 4 on the first hole played and likewise the first bird, a 2 on the third. To the same player must be given the rather doubtful distinction of slapping first into the lake in front of the fifth teeing ground, which he did to his great disgust on this history-making day.

Just a few months after writing of the alpinization of the hole, he records the first Birdie on it.These are finished holes at this time. Are you stating that between March & November the hole was radically changed to remove whatever "Alps" like obstacle was in front of the green? That might have happened, but without offer of concrete proof that it did in this time period, to state that "Tillinghast would basically be wrong about "alpinization" that had to be carried over in front of the green..." is at best a stretch that lacks all foundation. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that it appears unlikely to have occurred at that time.

If this is the case, then the idea that "Alpinization" on the early courses of America required mounding to obscure the front of the green is incorrect!”

Phil:

I’m not questioning Tillie’s veracity----it’s just that some of these accounts have to be looked at in a pretty detailed “Time-line” sense, if you know what I mean. When Tillie was writing these original accounts he couldn’t have been looking at the creation of PVGC in any “Time line” sense, if you know what I mean. He was just reporting what he saw at any particular time as the project went along. This overall account we’re referring to was written or “prefaced” by Tillie in the 1930s and he obviously just included his earlier articles of his observations of the progress of PVGC right from the beginning as references to his 1930s preface.

As I told you on the phone, thank God for all Tillie’s accounts of PVGC from the very beginning onward. If we didn’t have those constant written accounts of his creating a “Time-line” today on various holes and frankly the entire project would be really hard to impossible to do. The most valuable aspect of Tillie’s written accounts of the progress of the project of PVGC is he makes it possible to really do a before and after regarding Harry Colt because Tillie was reporting on PVGC from the very beginning to the end of Crump life.

The fact that Colt never saw the place until late May or early June is obviously significant as Tillie’s accounts can document what Crump had done before Colt ever got there. And to a lesser degree things that came after Colt left can be quite accurately assigned as Colt was only there for a week or so and he never again returned. So when I plug in all of what Colt left with PVGC in a design sense, the blue/red topo, the hole-by-hole Colt booklet and now this heretofore Colt whole course drawing we picked up off eBay it’s possible to assign to others what departs from what Colt offered.

If Harry Colt had come and gone constantly throughout those 5+ years while Crump and others worked on the place this type of fairly precise “timelining” would be really hard to do, and again, without Tillie’s constant written accounts as the project progressed it would be virtually impossible because other than Smith and Carr no one I know of kept much of a record of the architectural progress of the place from the very beginning to near the end.

So in this sense all I can say is thank God for Tillie and his constant written record.  

[TEPaul]

So Phil, my point is with that alpinization Tillie described in front of #3 in the April 1913 issue of American Golfer is just a description of what Tillie saw probably in March 1913.

One has to remember where that put the construction of PV in its "Timeline". That was really early, REALLY early.

Research does show that Crump apparently came out of the box at PVGC like a race-horse. In other words it appears probably starting as early as Jan 1913, perhaps even earlier, he had a ton of people (crew) out there clearing the land of trees and underbrush so he could look at the potential hole landforms, and start both routing and actually building holes.

(actually, I'll explain later how this modus of Crump's eventually turned out to be one massive complication and probably head-ache for Crump as the project proceeded through the years. We have to remember Crump started out as a rank amateur architect, he'd never done anything before, and in his zeal he never really finalized his entire routing as he continued to construct the holes and eventually he pretty much built himself right into a corner or into a box. This was the well-known 12-15 which took a number of years to really work out and finish. Crump had a whole course "balance" in his head, if you know what I mean. In other words, he knew exactly what kind of holes (length, shot-values etc) he wanted and precisely where (he probably got a lot of this from Colt in 1913) and he found himself in a corner of the property with 14 holes in play and he couldn't figure out how to get exactly what he wanted in the final four. Was he out of room? I guess you could say yes and no or not exactly. It seems pretty clear that in the first few years no one was going near where the 8 acre lake is now and particularly where 14 green and 15 tee is now. Nobody thought to go within about 150-200 yards of that area for a while and it's no wonder----it was basically one big watery swamp. I have a feeling when Crump and Govan decided to really go after the creation of that lake that may've been where Crump dropped some serious money. Many say Crump put about $250,000-275,000 into the golf course and in 1915 I don't think he was anywhere near spending that).  

I'm right now trying to write a massively detailed report of the creation of PV, its routings and each and every hole from beginning around Jan 1913 to Crump's death in Jan 1918 and then what happened regarding some of the holes following his death. Obviously I'm going with all I've got. I don't know if I have everything but I'm pretty confident that no one has more than I do to go on at this point---or no one has ever tried to analyze the whole thing this detailed with the available documentation just sort of around piece-meal.

So what I'm saying is what Tillie saw on #3 in March-April 1913 and what he played in November or so 1913 with Crump, Mott, Perrin, as the first to play the first five holes may've been quite different as to what was in front of that 3rd green. It doesn't mean Tillie wasn't telling the truth in April 1913, it just means between April and November, which is not exactly just a couple of months a lot happened on that course, probably including #3. And also, #3 was routed in April 1913 but how far along could it have possibly been in actual construction at that early point? Seeding hadn't begun on the course and obviously that needs at least a half year or more before anyone can actually play

One thing we do know is Crump did not at all like where Colt a few months later recommended the 2nd green should go and where the 3rd tee should be. Colt recommended the 3rd tee should be right smack in the middle of Crump's 2nd green and what is now one of the coolest putting greens on earth.

[DMoriarty]

Craig,  

I have little doubt that the alpinization hole they are talking about was the 10th at the time of the articles.  American Golfer mentions it many times and in a few issues.  If Tillie was Hazard, then even he calls it the 10th.  Of course I have no idea whether this corresponds to the current 10th hole or not.  

But isnt it possible the hole you picture is this hole.  
Take a look at the sketch above and compare it your aerial . . . is it possible that some remnants of the Alpinization is visible around the first fairway bunker on the right and perhaps even the second.  At least the first fairway bunker seems to be in the same location as the "alpinization" in the sketch above.   I've blown up the photo and circled the parts I am referencing . . .



Here is a further description of the hole, from Dec 1912 American Golfer, by "Hazard" . . . (Wasnt Hazard Tillinghast himself??) which describes the hole in a little more detail . . .

"In developing the 10th hole at
Shawnee, Mr. A. W. Tillinghast, the
architect of the course, has worked
out a teeing ground which is very
unique. It is built into the side of a
ridge and extends diagonally across
the line of play. Owing to the length
—90 feet—the tee-plates can be shifted
with reference to the wind in such a
manner as to make the carry of the
"Alps" as difficult or as easy as may
be desired. It will be observed from
the sketch that the moving of the
plates not only changes the distance
but the direction as well. The distances
marked from B-B roughly indicate
the carries of various sections of
the "Alps." Obviously the shot from
A-A would be easier and from C-C,
much more difficult. The way around
the "Alps" is quite open but a sliced
ball renders a second shot to the green
a particularly trying one. The hole
measures 339 yards and owing to the
throw of the ground the green should
be approached dead-on or slightly
from the left. A straight carry of the
"Alps" is the keystone of success.
The teeing ground has been shaped to
naturally conform with the slopes on
every side and the severe lines of a
terrace have been carefully avoided."

[DMoriarty]

CORRECTION   A few posts above, I mistakenly posted a photo of the bunker in front of the original Sahara green.  I've replaced it with the correct photo. I think I did this exact same thing last time this issue came up . . . I've relabeled by file so it shouldnt happen again.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

DMoriarty,

That's not the "Alps" portion of the 3rd hole at NGLA.

The "Alps" intervenes between the first and second fairway.

Patrick, I understand this,  but am speculating that the original 10th green at Merion may have been modeled on the 10th green at Prestwick and/or National.   The most compelling factor to me is the artificial ridge behind the green.

Blow-up of the tenth at Merion from above . . .


NGLA Alps greensite from the Plaster Model . . .


Prestwick Alps Greensite . . .


Also, for comparison, take a look at the construction photo of the Lido's Alps green . . .



All of these greens have not only the fronting bunker the semi-circular ridge behind the green.   Of course this may have been just a coincidence, but it lends credence to the description of this hole as an "Alps" concept hole, or at the very least helps explains it.

[TEPaul]

"NGLA Alps greensite from the Plaster Model."

Incredible photo find there David;

Jeeesus, and that's a plaster mold from the guy who got so upset with the shocking look of the old "geometric" era he said; "It makes the very soul of golf shriek"?!

I'll tell you right now to truly understand American golf architecture as to how or when it evolved into a far more "natural" looking style you've just got to understand precisely where American architecture was at particular times that way.

Macdonald's NGLA was pretty early but even being the great course it was and is obviously neither he nor it had quite gotten there yet in naturalism. To a certain degree he never did. If anyone actually wants to say all of NGLA's architecture looked natural I'd say they're as blind as Stevie Wonder.

Did it matter? That's the ultimate question, isn't it?  

(I wonder if that was a reason Macdonald changed some of his greens later.)

". . . (Wasnt Hazard Tillinghast himself??)"

Yes, "Hazard" was Tillie and it was pretty funny when "Hazard" wrote about Tillinghast in the complete third person almost as he didn't know the guy.  

[TEPaul]

"Tillie claimed he had no knowledge of the mounds at Mid-Surrey when he designed Shawnee, he arrived at those on his own. In fact they may predate RMS's Alpinisation. They don't look anything like the huge mounds Taylor and Lees built at RMS."

Tom MacWood:

I have no idea how you could say that. Look at the first photo of RMS in TommyN's "In Praise of the Ralph Miller Library". Those mounds and the "alpinization" at Shawnee look quite similar except at Shawnee some of the shapes were a bit weirder than the mounds of RMS. Perhaps you don't appreciate the size and scale of the "alpinization" at Shawnee. Looks pretty big to me and a whole lot bigger than what he did later on #4 and #6 of Somerset Hills.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

If your theory is correct, from what vantage point and elevation is the photo taken from ?

It would appear to be taken from the left side of the rise in the hill fronting the 3rd green.

In addition, take a close look at the contour of the green with the lower plateau leading back to the upper right plateau.
Does that look familiar to you?"

Pat:

I don't know, that's what confused me so much. I kept looking at it and looking at it and I couldn't figure out where it was or where the photo was taken from. But the caption certainly did say the old 2nd green (Sahara) and I believe it even said before Macdonald moved it. The old original 2nd was pretty short and we know where the old 2nd tee was so I figure that green was maybe not all that far over the Sahara bunker, maybe somewhere on the present fairway (left) before that fairway downslope to the green. The best I could figure is the photo was taken from over on the left of the hole (maybe pretty near the maintenance road) looking back up that ridgeline in the distance which is very close to where Sebonack's 1st tee is now.

[DMoriarty]

CORRECTION   A few posts above, I mistakenly posted a photo of the bunker in front of the original Sahara green.  I've replaced it with the correct photo. I think I did this exact same thing last time this issue came up . . . I've relabeled by file so it shouldnt happen again.  Sorry for the confusion.

[T_MacWood]

Phillip,

Here are a few photographs of the Alpinization at Shawnee . . .  Note the golfer in the right side of the photo for perspective.  

TE
Are you joking? Those are some ugly mounds...I've seen a ton of old photos of the Mid-Surrey mounds and they didn't look like these. There is a good photo of them in Golf Architecture Magazine volume 7.

[TEPaul]

No, Tom, I'm not joking. The mounds around the 6th green at Mid-Surrey G.C. are most definitely ugly enough. In that era it seems many architects made some mistakes on the side of ugly. One just has to call a spade a spade.

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